From Fighting-Man to Fighter

[Matthew-]

During the course of the Forgotten Rules thread the subject of the difference in fighting ability between the Original Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons fighter came up. Specifically, the fact that a level one Greyhawk fighter with a strength of 13+ is equivalent to a fighter two levels higher than at the same level in AD&D. It seemed an interesting exercise to compare the fighting ability of the various iterations to see how they changed over time and by level.

Fighter Strength Attack Roll Bonus Comparison

Strength	OD&D	OD&D:GH	AD&D	AD&D*	AD&D:UA	AD&D:UA*
9-12	+0	+0	+0	+0	+1	+3
13-15	+0	+1	+0	+0	+1	+3
16	+0	+1	+0	+0	+1	+3
17	+0	+2	+1	+1	+2	+4
18	+0	+2	+1	+1	+2	+4
18/01-75	+0	+2	+1	+1	+2	+4
18/76-99	+0	+3	+2	+2	+3	+5
18/00	+0	+4	+3	+3	+4	+6

Fighter Strength Damage Bonus Comparison

Strength	OD&D	OD&D:GH	AD&D	AD&D*	AD&D:UA	AD&D:UA*
9-12	+0	+0	+0	+0	+2	+3
13-15	+0	+0	+0	+0	+2	+3
16	+0	+1	+1	+1	+3	+4
17	+0	+2	+1	+1	+3	+4
18	+0	+3	+2	+2	+4	+5
18/01-75	+0	+3	+3	+3	+5	+6
18/76-90	+0	+4	+4	+4	+6	+7
18/91-99	+0	+5	+5	+5	+7	+8
18/00	+0	+6	+6	+6	+8	+9

One of the first things worth noting here is that a strength 18 in Greyhawk is exactly the same as a strength 18/01-50. That means that exceptional strength only matters if it is 51+. That approach seems to make a lot more sense than having "18" and "18/01" be discrete values. In Original Dungeons & Dragons a dexterity of 13+ grants +1 to hit and in Greyhawk the usual pattern is followed for modifying armour class, but for fighters only. When Gygax revised these values for AD&D he shifted the +1 for missile attacks to +1/+2/+3 at dexterity 16/17/18, but discarded the +1 strength bonus to hit for strength 13+ altogether, which had a significant effect with regards to the relative fighting ability of a low level Greyhawk fighter versus an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons fighter. Noticeably, damage bonuses were lessened for strength 17-18/50, but the upper limits kept the same.

Fighting Ability Strength 9-12

Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17
OD&D	1	1	1	3	3	3	6	6	6	8	8	8	10	10	10	13	13
OD&D:GH	1	1	1	3	3	3	6	6	6	8	8	8	10	10	10	13	13
AD&D	0	0	2	2	4	4	6	6	8	8	10	10	12	12	14	14	16
AD&D*	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16
AD&D:UA	0(1)	1(2)	2(3)	3(4)	4(5)	5(6)	6(7)	7(8)	8(9)	9(10)	10(11)	11(12)	12(13)	13(14)	14(15)	15(16)	16(17)
AD&D:UA*	0(3)	1(4)	2(5)	3(6)	4(7)	5(8)	6(9)	7(10)	8(11)	9(12)	10(13)	11(14)	12(15)	13(16)	14(17)	15(18)	16(19)

As can be seen from the above, up until around levels 8-10 the OD&D fighter has a very similar fighting ability to that of the AD&D fighter, which thereafter pulls away by 2-4 points, depending on what levels are compared. The "grouping" methodology has a very erratic progression, and it seems to me that the optional linear progression of the AD&D fighter makes for a much more predictable capability at mid to high levels, but suffers by comparison at low levels.

Fighting Ability Strength 13-16

Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17
OD&D	1	1	1	3	3	3	6	6	6	8	8	8	10	10	10	13	13
OD&D:GH	1(2)	1(2)	1(2)	3(4)	3(4)	3(4)	6(7)	6(7)	6(7)	8(9)	8(9)	8(9)	10(11)	10(11)	10(11)	13(14)	13(14)
AD&D	0	0	2	2	4	4	6	6	8	8	10	10	12	12	14	14	16
AD&D*	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16
AD&D:UA	0(1)	1(2)	2(3)	3(4)	4(5)	5(6)	6(7)	7(8)	8(9)	9(10)	10(11)	11(12)	12(13)	13(14)	14(15)	15(16)	16(17)
AD&D:UA*	0(3)	1(4)	2(5)	3(6)	4(7)	5(8)	6(9)	7(10)	8(11)	9(12)	10(13)	11(14)	12(15)	13(16)	14(17)	15(18)	16(19)

Here the significance of a +1 to hit from strength 13-16 is evident in that it puts the Greyhawk fighter in good stead relative to the specialised fighter, though the latter is still 2-4 points better at levels 11+ and inferior at level 1; non specialised AD&D fighters only shift away at levels 9+. Of course, this does not take into account multiple attacks, which are again a trade off, since the Greyhawk fighter can attack as many orcs as he has levels, but doesn't get the benefit of additional attack routines at levels 7 and 13, still less when specialisation is considered.

Fighting Ability Strength 17-18/50

Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17
OD&D	1	1	1	3	3	3	6	6	6	8	8	8	10	10	10	13	13
OD&D:GH	1(3)	1(3)	1(3)	3(5)	3(5)	3(5)	6(8)	6(8)	6(8)	8(10)	8(10)	8(10)	10(12)	10(12)	10(12)	13(15)	13(15)
AD&D	0(1)	0(1)	2(3)	2(3)	4(5)	4(5)	6(7)	6(7)	8(9)	8(9)	10(11)	10(11)	12(13)	12(13)	14(15)	14(15)	16(17)
AD&D*	0(1)	1(2)	2(3)	3(4)	4(5)	5(6)	6(7)	7(8)	8(9)	9(10)	10(11)	11(12)	12(13)	13(14)	14(15)	15(16)	16(17)
AD&D:UA	0(2)	1(3)	2(4)	3(5)	4(6)	5(7)	6(8)	7(9)	8(10)	9(11)	10(12)	11(13)	12(14)	13(15)	14(16)	15(17)	16(18)
AD&D:UA*	0(4)	1(5)	2(6)	3(7)	4(8)	5(9)	6(10)	7(11)	8(12)	9(13)	10(14)	11(15)	12(16)	13(17)	14(18)	15(19)	16(20)

The uniform way that the bonuses are added between OD&D and AD&D means that the trends are continued at higher strength values, as can be further seen below:

Fighting Ability Strength 18/51-99

Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17
OD&D	1	1	1	3	3	3	6	6	6	8	8	8	10	10	10	13	13
OD&D:GH	1(4)	1(4)	1(4)	3(6)	3(6)	3(6)	6(9)	6(9)	6(9)	8(11)	8(11)	8(11)	10(13)	10(13)	10(13)	13(16)	13(16)
AD&D	0(2)	0(2)	2(4)	2(4)	4(6)	4(6)	6(8)	6(8)	8(10)	8(10)	10(12)	10(12)	12(14)	12(14)	14(16)	14(16)	16(18)
AD&D*	0(2)	1(3)	2(4)	3(5)	4(6)	5(7)	6(8)	7(9)	8(10)	9(11)	10(12)	11(13)	12(14)	13(15)	14(16)	15(17)	16(18)
AD&D:UA	0(3)	1(4)	2(5)	3(6)	4(7)	5(8)	6(9)	7(10)	8(11)	9(12)	10(13)	11(14)	12(15)	13(16)	14(17)	15(18)	16(19)
AD&D:UA*	0(5)	1(6)	2(7)	3(8)	4(9)	5(10)	6(11)	7(12)	8(13)	9(14)	10(15)	11(16)	12(17)	13(18)	14(19)	15(20)	16(21)

Fighting Ability Strength 18/00

Level	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17
OD&D	1	1	1	3	3	3	6	6	6	8	8	8	10	10	10	13	13
OD&D:GH	1(5)	1(5)	1(5)	3(7)	3(7)	3(7)	6(10)	6(10)	6(10)	8(12)	8(12)	8(12)	10(14)	10(14)	10(14)	13(17)	13(17)
AD&D	0(3)	0(3)	2(5)	2(5)	4(7)	4(7)	6(9)	6(9)	8(11)	8(11)	10(13)	10(13)	12(15)	12(15)	14(17)	14(17)	16(19)
AD&D*	0(3)	1(4)	2(5)	3(6)	4(7)	5(8)	6(9)	7(10)	8(11)	9(12)	10(13)	11(14)	12(15)	13(16)	14(17)	15(18)	16(19)
AD&D:UA	0(4)	1(5)	2(6)	3(7)	4(8)	5(9)	6(10)	7(11)	8(12)	9(13)	10(14)	11(15)	12(16)	13(17)	14(18)	15(19)	16(20)
AD&D:UA*	0(6)	1(7)	2(8)	3(9)	4(10)	5(11)	6(12)	7(13)	8(14)	9(15)	10(16)	11(17)	12(18)	13(19)	14(20)	15(21)	16(22)

What seems to be observable is that between OD&D and AD&D Gygax strengthened the fighter in terms of his fighting ability at mid to high levels, but significantly decreased his fighting ability at the lowest levels. The introduction of weapon specialisation is often seen as an unnecessary boost to fighters that has most significance at mid to high levels, and is intended to deal with the hit point and capability inflation of new monsters and opponents. This certainly seems to be the case with regards to double specialisation, but the argument can possibly be made for Gygax also seeking to reverse his depowering of the fighter at levels 1-3. There are surely better ways he could have done so if he was redesigning the game from the ground up, but as an addition any "fix" could only be imperfect. It is probably no accident, then, that at the same time his proto Unearthed Arcana articles were seeing print in Dragon he was also making noises about a second edition. It would perhaps be to assume too much that he was considering revising the attack matrices and attribute tables for second edition, but I suspect that this was something that he was considering.

Abbreviations

OD&D - Original Dungeons & Dragons
OD&D:GH - Original Dungeons & Dragons: Greyhawk Supplement
AD&D - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
AD&D* - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (Optional Fighter Progression)
AD&D:UA - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Unearthed Arcana (Specialised)
AD&D:UA* - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Unearthed Arcana (Double Specialised)

Formulation X(Y) = Fighting Ability(Modified Fighting Ability)
Fighting Ability = Equivalent Original Dungeons & Dragons Fighter Level

Related Threads

2006-06-25 Hit Point Inflation

[Nagora]

I was just drafting a message to you on the subject of the change in exceptional strength between OD&D and AD&D. Basically, a fighter with 18STR in OD&D rolls for a 50/50 chance that they are "just" 18 or something special, whereas in AD&D all fighters get the boost automatically on rolling 18STR. I've never been a fan of this change, but I can live with it.

Now I have something to read over lunch.

[spurious]

I was just drafting a message to you on the subject of the change in exceptional strength between OD&D and AD&D. Basically, a fighter with 18STR in OD&D rolls for a 50/50 chance that they are "just" 18 or something special, whereas in AD&D all fighters get the boost automatically on rolling 18STR. I've never been a fan of this change, but I can live with it.

Depending on how you interpret strength increase due to age (and how carefully you track it once the game starts), there will still be more fighters with 18 STR than any variety of 18/XX.

Possible house rule that now occurs. Assume exceptional STR is due to martial training. Allow all single-classed fighters either a +1 STR or a roll for exceptional strength if it's already 18 (due to initial roll modified for race). This simulates what the aging rules are doing accidentally anyway, though you might well consider a +2 from class plus aging to be too much.

[genghisdon]

I was just drafting a message to you on the subject of the change in exceptional strength between OD&D and AD&D. Basically, a fighter with 18STR in OD&D rolls for a 50/50 chance that they are "just" 18 or something special, whereas in AD&D all fighters get the boost automatically on rolling 18STR. I've never been a fan of this change, but I can live with it.

Now I have something to read over lunch.

now that is a rule I didn't know of Nagora. Interesting. It is a bit odd that a fighter never has just 18 str in 1e.

Interesting & Complete Analysis as always Matthew, I always learn something when you bring up OD&D as it is the only version I have never played(& only glanced over really).

What do you think of B/X to hit bonuses in comparison? You need not make such charts, but I like the initial bump ALL classes get & the slower rate of increase overall, the score bonuses & penalties spread out over the bell curve more rather than flattened to extremes.

[BlackBat242]

If the fighter rolls a 17 str, then when aging boosts it by 1 in game play, it goes to 18 only.

The "auto % roll for 18 str" rule only applies if the 18 is achieved during character generation.

[ScottyG]

I've never seen it played that way, and don't think that's what the rules say, but I'm at work now and can't check.
As far as I know, all fighters get the percentage roll added to the 18 in 1E, regardless of whether it occurs at creation, or they reach 18 at some later point.

[Nazim]

As far as I know, all fighters get the percentage roll added to the 18 in 1E, regardless of whether it occurs at creation, or they reach 18 at some later point.

That's my understanding too.

[Thorkhammer]

I'm not sure how much I agree or not with either side of the issue, since I am grappling with this concept:

17 strength fighter has just gained 18 strength. So, he rolls an 01.

Btb, it would take him 10 Wishes to gain a 19 STR regardless of his per cent. However, he reads a Manual of gainful exercise and, ZIP, goes to 19. That's a nice gain.

However, another fighter finally gains 18 strength. He rolls a 99. It will still take him 10 Wishes to reach 19, though the manual will do the same thing. The gain is so pitiful as to be almost a waste of the manual, or use of so many wishes.

So, I'm not sure if the 18/% upon creation only is a bad thing or not. Each DM will have to decide, I suppose.

(Note, also, the aging adjustments consider losing only 1/2 the % strength when going to middle-age; thereafter, it does not halve that again per each age bracket gained, but severely depletes whole strength numbers--as many as 2 in one instance--as the character advances.)

[J_Elric_smith]

.

However, another fighter finally gains 18 strength. He rolls a 99. It will still take him 10 Wishes to reach 19, though the manual will do the same thing. The gain is so pitiful as to be almost a waste of the manual, or use of so many wishes.

we always played each wish added 10% so a fighter with percentile str of 18/99 would only need one wish to go to 19 while a fighter with 18/01 would need 10
ken

[Nazim]

However, another fighter finally gains 18 strength. He rolls a 99. It will still take him 10 Wishes to reach 19, though the manual will do the same thing. The gain is so pitiful as to be almost a waste of the manual, or use of so many wishes.

we always played each wish added 10% so a fighter with percentile str of 18/99 would only need one wish to go to 19 while a fighter with 18/01 would need 10

I think this is a common houserule, and not very far from being by the book, either.

[spurious]

I think this is a common houserule, and not very far from being by the book, either.

It's about as btb as anything in AD&D ever is. '... when any ability score reaches 16, then ... a wish will have the effect of increasing the ability by only 1/10th of a point.' Nothing there incompatible with exceptional strength.

The rule on fighter strength going from 17 to 18 (due to age), on the other hand, is a real throw your hands up in despair moment. Whether or not one gets an exceptional strength roll is completely ambiguous.

[Nagora]

I think this is a common houserule, and not very far from being by the book, either.

It's about as btb as anything in AD&D ever is. '... when any ability score reaches 16, then ... a wish will have the effect of increasing the ability by only 1/10th of a point.' Nothing there incompatible with exceptional strength.

The rule on fighter strength going from 17 to 18 (due to age), on the other hand, is a real throw your hands up in despair moment. Whether or not one gets an exceptional strength roll is completely ambiguous.

I don't agree. The PHB clearly states that fighters with an 18 strength get to roll their percentile dice. It doesn't say anything in particular about how they get their 18 strength, it's a totally general rule that doesn't need restating in the age section. Getting a +1 to strength when you already have 18/xx is much less clear, IMO.

[spurious]

I don't agree. The PHB clearly states that fighters with an 18 strength get to roll their percentile dice. It doesn't say anything in particular about how they get their 18 strength, it's a totally general rule that doesn't need restating in the age section.

As with all general rules, it's general insofar as special cases don't create an exception. (This is a necessary assumption if we're going to try to create any (game) rules at all.) The text on ability score gains due to aging is quite explicit. 'The only ability which may exceed 18 due to age effects (unless age restricts this) is wisdom.' You might wish to argue that scores 18/01 through 18/00 don't exceed 18, though that would require some rather circuitous logic, at least so far as I can see.

Getting a +1 to strength when you already have 18/xx is much less clear, IMO.

Again the passage above is quite clear; though as a houserule you might handle it in any number of ways. The most obvious approach is to allow strength to increase to the lowest point of the next exceptional strength bracket. (While 18/00 stays as it is--the player has been quite lucky enough already.)

As for how wishes apply to all this, it seems logical (if not strictly btb) that acquiring each new level of exceptional strength requires either ten wishes, or to divide the range (say 18/01-18/50) into ten increments and go from there. Thus, a fighter with 18/46 strength must make one wish to get to 18/51, while a character with 18/01 must make ten. (Extrapolate hence.) This seems fair, since what matters is not the rating itself but the game bonuses that accrue.

[Matthew-]

I think this is a common houserule, and not very far from being by the book, either.

I wonder how much of this interpretation was inspired by the way in which the Cavalier class advances attributes? Thinking about it, there is virtually no need for the percentage to be important at all once the initial roll has been made; exceptional strength could equally be noted as 18.1, 18.2, 18.3, 18.4, and 18.5, or by some other contrivance.

[SBLaxman]

I think this is a common houserule, and not very far from being by the book, either.

I wonder how much of this interpretation was inspired by the way in which the Cavalier class advances attributes? Thinking about it, there is virtually no need for the percentage to be important at all once the initial roll has been made; exceptional strength could equally be noted as 18.1, 18.2, 18.3, 18.4, and 18.5, or by some other contrivance.

Never read UA until recently (at least the class sections), so my interpretation is free of that influence at least. FWIW, I've always interpreted than the %roll is only for character creation... if a fighter had 17 strength and gets it upped to 18, he has an 18. Each wish raises it 10%, and a +1 bonus will jump him to the next "bracket". A manual of gainful expertise will raise him to the mid-point of the next 18/xx bracket, or to 19 if he is at 18/00. A fighter who rolled 18/40 at character creation will go up to 18/50 with one wish, 18/60 with 2, etc, until 18/00, after which he'll go to 19.

BTB? Don't know and don't care!

[Finarvyn]

Since 18(01)-18(50) are the same range, I'd be more inclined to give a character who just moved into an 18 strength no higher than 18(50) becasue 18(51) is another notch above.

Or you could let 'em roll percentile dice divided by two, if you want it to be more random.

I think that if a 17 turns into an 18 it should be a lower-18 and not jumping up into the higher numbers.

Just my two coppers.

[Matthew-]

Never read UA until recently (at least the class sections), so my interpretation is free of that influence at least. FWIW, I've always interpreted than the %roll is only for character creation... if a fighter had 17 strength and gets it upped to 18, he has an 18. Each wish raises it 10%, and a +1 bonus will jump him to the next "bracket". A manual of gainful expertise will raise him to the mid-point of the next 18/xx bracket, or to 19 if he is at 18/00. A fighter who rolled 18/40 at character creation will go up to 18/50 with one wish, 18/60 with 2, etc, until 18/00, after which he'll go to 19.

BTB? Don't know and don't care!

Was it not also a AD&D/2e rule?

Since 18(01)-18(50) are the same range, I'd be more inclined to give a character who just moved into an 18 strength no higher than 18(50) becasue 18(51) is another notch above.

Or you could let 'em roll percentile dice divided by two, if you want it to be more random.

I think that if a 17 turns into an 18 it should be a lower-18 and not jumping up into the higher numbers.

It definitely makes sense in Original Dungeons & Dragons, because 18 and 18/01-50 are the same, but I can see why people would choose not to allow a "bump up" when a character moves directly from 17 to 18 strength.

[chris107]

Don't know if it's by the book but this is how we play it.

Fighters (not paladins or rangers) get to roll a % super strength when they get to 18 strength, either rolled or by ageing.

A player who rolls an 18 in strength would have both the % roll and a bonus if this was to rise due to race (half orc) or age, of + 1 bracket; 01-50 would go to 51-75 etc. With racial maximums applying.

The manual that raises strength in the DMG IMHO should raise a strength by a full point. 17 becoming 18 (fighters only could then roll a %), 18 becoming 19.

Wishes? +1 up to 16 then +10% after that.

Best

Chris

[Corwwyn]

I was just drafting a message to you on the subject of the change in exceptional strength between OD&D and AD&D. Basically, a fighter with 18STR in OD&D rolls for a 50/50 chance that they are "just" 18 or something special, whereas in AD&D all fighters get the boost automatically on rolling 18STR. I've never been a fan of this change, but I can live with it.

Now I have something to read over lunch.

now that is a rule I didn't know of Nagora. Interesting. It is a bit odd that a fighter never has just 18 str in 1e.

Whilst it would be a rare player to choose his or her fighter to have just 18, the wording on PHB page 9 makes it entirely possible in 1e.

The PHB states (bold mine): "fighters with an 18 strength are entitled to roll percentile dice in order to generate a random number between 01 and 00 (100) to detemine exceptional strength;"
and "Note that only fighters are permitted to roll on the exceptional strength section of STRENGTH TABLE II: ABILITY ADJUSTMENTS."

It seems pretty clear that the fighter player has a choice whether to roll and have exceptional strength, or to keep a straight 18.

[Corwwyn]

I don't agree. The PHB clearly states that fighters with an 18 strength get to roll their percentile dice. It doesn't say anything in particular about how they get their 18 strength, it's a totally general rule that doesn't need restating in the age section.

As with all general rules, it's general insofar as special cases don't create an exception. (This is a necessary assumption if we're going to try to create any (game) rules at all.) The text on ability score gains due to aging is quite explicit. 'The only ability which may exceed 18 due to age effects (unless age restricts this) is wisdom.' You might wish to argue that scores 18/01 through 18/00 don't exceed 18, though that would require some rather circuitous logic, at least so far as I can see.

Getting a +1 to strength when you already have 18/xx is much less clear, IMO.

Again the passage above is quite clear; though as a houserule you might handle it in any number of ways. The most obvious approach is to allow strength to increase to the lowest point of the next exceptional strength bracket. (While 18/00 stays as it is--the player has been quite lucky enough already.)

As for how wishes apply to all this, it seems logical (if not strictly btb) that acquiring each new level of exceptional strength requires either ten wishes, or to divide the range (say 18/01-18/50) into ten increments and go from there. Thus, a fighter with 18/46 strength must make one wish to get to 18/51, while a character with 18/01 must make ten. (Extrapolate hence.) This seems fair, since what matters is not the rating itself but the game bonuses that accrue.

The text you quote (from DMG page13) goes on to say: "Most adjustments are in whole numbers, so that 18 strength drops to 17, even if it is from 18/00, as exceptional strength is not considered."

It seems reasonable to me to view the tortuous advice above to mean that 18 strength (be it 18, 18/01, 18/xx, or even 18/00) will drop to 17 when age drops strength.

It seems equally reasonable to me to therefore view the situation where strength increases due to age if the initial strength was 17, that it would rise to 18 (and entitle the player to roll percentile for exceptional strength if the character is a fighter).

I mean, if you think about it, how does any character get to strength 18 in the first place? I suggest not many 10 year old humans would qualify...

[rabindranath72]

I was just drafting a message to you on the subject of the change in exceptional strength between OD&D and AD&D. Basically, a fighter with 18STR in OD&D rolls for a 50/50 chance that they are "just" 18 or something special, whereas in AD&D all fighters get the boost automatically on rolling 18STR. I've never been a fan of this change, but I can live with it.

Now I have something to read over lunch.

now that is a rule I didn't know of Nagora. Interesting. It is a bit odd that a fighter never has just 18 str in 1e.

Whilst it would be a rare player to choose his or her fighter to have just 18, the wording on PHB page 9 makes it entirely possible in 1e.

The PHB states (bold mine): "fighters with an 18 strength are entitled to roll percentile dice in order to generate a random number between 01 and 00 (100) to detemine exceptional strength;"
and "Note that only fighters are permitted to roll on the exceptional strength section of STRENGTH TABLE II: ABILITY ADJUSTMENTS."

It seems pretty clear that the fighter player has a choice whether to roll and have exceptional strength, or to keep a straight 18.

I read something completely different. Since the special bonuses are in the general Strength table, which is introduced even before the classes, perhaps a player might wonder how to get those scores. Hence the above explanation that only fighters are entitled and permitted to roll for exceptional strength. I don't think there is the issue if you wanted to or not, because why wouldn't a player want to get a more effective character type that he already has chosen to play? It's a (the only) fighter special ability!

[Glacius]

We run a slightly modified house rule for Exp Strength in our Campaigns. We allow every Warrior class to roll % at creation. So for example a character can run a Warrior with 14/76 Strength. We felt that this was a good system as it gave the Warrior the % str bonus to EVERY Warrior, not just the lucky few that have an 18 for Str.

To make this work we have made some minor changes to the Strength table so that the /01 - /00 is removed and the run is more linear progressing from 18 - 19 directly.

We justify this is by working on the fact that Warriors are trained to get the most out of the Muscle and Strength they have so they are always at least slight Stronger than a non warrior that has the same base Str score.

This also makes it easier to add and remove whole points of Strength from the Warrior as they never lose the skill and Training that gives them the % Str gain.

ps we mostly play 2e so our table is set to work all the way to 25 Str

[Man in the Funny Hat]

SuperStrength was a poorly conceived mechanic. For myself I eliminted percentile strength and incorporated the bonuses into a normal progression of strength ability scores. It simply meant extending strength bonuses further down the scale, so strength bonuses actually start at 12 (!) instead of 16, non-fighters being limited to +1/+3 which they would get with Str 15 on my revised table.

I actually revised the other ability score tables as well. The changes to Strength were only partly to eliminate percentile strength, most of my changes to the ability tables were intended to better fit the bell curve of 3d6 for ability score generation. That's because the problems with ability score generation lie with ALL the bonuses being at the extreme end of the probability curve for 3d6 (or even 4d6 rolls). Instead of beating your head against the wall trying to create a dicing method that gets you the spread of scores that actually provides bonuses, you change the bonuses that the NORMAL spread of scores will get you.

[Justisaur]

Just eliminate the exceptional scores and give all fighters a +1 to hit and +2 to damage, and around 50# carrying capacity. Hey that's pretty similar to specialization, minus the carrying capacity.

[rabindranath72]

We run a slightly modified house rule for Exp Strength in our Campaigns. We allow every Warrior class to roll % at creation. So for example a character can run a Warrior with 14/76 Strength. We felt that this was a good system as it gave the Warrior the % str bonus to EVERY Warrior, not just the lucky few that have an 18 for Str.

To make this work we have made some minor changes to the Strength table so that the /01 - /00 is removed and the run is more linear progressing from 18 - 19 directly.

We justify this is by working on the fact that Warriors are trained to get the most out of the Muscle and Strength they have so they are always at least slight Stronger than a non warrior that has the same base Str score.

This also makes it easier to add and remove whole points of Strength from the Warrior as they never lose the skill and Training that gives them the % Str gain.

ps we mostly play 2e so our table is set to work all the way to 25 Str

I tried something similar, but I used a relative increment on all the entries of the strength table, based off the 18 baseline, so the % bonuses read as:
% bonus to hit bonus to damage weight open door (2/6 base) bend bars
01-50 0 +1 +250 +1 +4%
51-75 +1 +1 +500 +2 +9%
76-90 +1 +2 +750 +2 +17%
91-99 +1 +3 +1250 +2 (1) +22%
00 +2 +4 +2250 +3 (2) +27%

So if you STR 18, you get the original table, but if you have STR 14/75, you'll add the bonuses of the 51-75 row to the entries in the 14 row.

[rastus_burne]

For those of you who have: did you find messing with the strength tables/bonuses affected game balance at all? This could be either positively or adversely. Just interested whether it drastically changes gameplay/helps balance/doesn't matter in the slightest.

[Glacius]

What we have done hasn't messed with balance that much, not many non warrior classes ever made it to 18 Str. So typically only Warriors get up into the realms of this Str, and they are the only ones that would benefit from the change.

This is the new Str Table that we use;

Attribute Fighting Ability Damage Weight Allowance Maximum Press Open Doors Bend Bars/Lift Gates
18 +1 +2 110 255 11 16%
19 +1 +3 260 415 11(2) 26%
20 +1 +4 310 475 12(4) 36%
21 +2 +5 410 585 12(6) 46%
22 +2 +6 560 745 13(8) 56%
23 +3 +7 710 905 13(10) 66%
24 +4 +8 1,010 1,215 14(11) 71%
25 +5 +10 1,310 1,525 14(12) 75%

Warrior Only.
Exceptional Strength Fighting Ability Damage Weight Allowance Maximum Press Open Doors Bend Bars/Lift Gates
0-50 +0 +1 +25 +25 +1 +4%
51-75 +1 +1 +50 +50 +2 +9%
76-90 +1 +2 +75 +75 +3 +14%
91-99 +1 +3 +125 +125 +4(+3) +19%
00 +2 +4 +225 +225 +5(+6) +24%

Of note (again) we play mostly 2e, so some conversion could be needed)and I also DM A Dark Sun based campaign, so a few of my PCs have Str in the neighbourhood of 19, some are not Warriors as well. It has not impacted at all in my Campaign and in fact I think that it has helped to even out the Str as it seemed ridiculous that a Cleric with 18 Str had +1/+2 and a Cleric with 19 Str had +3/+7

AND>>> I cant do tables today

[Matthew-]

For those of you who have: did you find messing with the strength tables/bonuses affected game balance at all? This could be either positively or adversely. Just interested whether it drastically changes gameplay/helps balance/doesn't matter in the slightest.

Sure, it has made it better.

[rastus_burne]

For those of you who have: did you find messing with the strength tables/bonuses affected game balance at all? This could be either positively or adversely. Just interested whether it drastically changes gameplay/helps balance/doesn't matter in the slightest.

Sure, it has made it better.

So do you run the strength progression as OD&D, AD&D or something completely different to both of those?

[SBLaxman]

For those of you who have: did you find messing with the strength tables/bonuses affected game balance at all? This could be either positively or adversely. Just interested whether it drastically changes gameplay/helps balance/doesn't matter in the slightest.

Sure, it has made it better.

So do you run the strength progression as OD&D, AD&D or something completely different to both of those?

My working version is a modified D&D table:

Score	modifier
3-4	-3
5-6	-2
7-8	-1
9-11	0
12-13	+1
14-15	+2
16-17	+3
18-19	+4
20	+5
21	+6
22	+7
23	+8
24	+9
25	+10

This is a general table for all ability scores.