Q&A with Rob Kuntz

[Clangador]

When is GaryCon?

[rossik]

happy birthday, rob!

wish you all the best, health and time to do the things you need and the ones you like

[MajorKookie]

Thanks, Rossik. Much appreciated.

RJK

[kaskoid]

How many is that now, Rob? (I know, not as many as mine...lol.)

May you mark many more, old friend.

[MajorKookie]

Hi Tim!

Jack Benny: "39"...

And of course that quote gives away a lot.

55, born in '55... A good year for something, at least...

[kaskoid]

Hi Tim!

Jack Benny: "39"...

And of course that quote gives away a lot.

55, born in '55... A good year for something, at least...

Iconic Chevies?

[MajorKookie]

Those too...

[rossik]

also:

The game Scrabble debuts.
First edition of the Guinness Book of Records is published, in London.
and birth of chinese actor Gordon Liu (i love his films)

hey rob, we should add you here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MajorKookie]

Erh, no, Rossik. Someone might do it after I die, and I will be somewhere at that point, laughing my ass off. Give me until then, at least...

[francisca]

Happy Birthday, Rob!

[rossik]

Erh, no, Rossik. Someone might do it after I die, and I will be somewhere at that point, laughing my ass off. Give me until then, at least...

lol
wish you a long life with wealth then, rob

[MajorKookie]

Thanks Rossik. I'm feeling pretty vital; these days (knock on wormwood). Heavy into the Machine Level, outlining a screenplay, doing a project (AD&D) with Kyrinn Eis and blogging a lot. Check out my blog link below for the Machine Level news and for a series article I am doing there on D&D.

[BlackBat242]

Sure! Sounds good to me. Robilar never drove a Rambler, Pete. Heh...
It was the Dragon, green, with big, pointy fangs...
Spam Link

???

A serious post?

Or Spam?

[MajorKookie]

Sure! Sounds good to me. Robilar never drove a Rambler, Pete. Heh...
It was the Dragon, green, with big, pointy fangs...
Spam Link

???

A serious post?

Or Spam?

I wondered that myself. The poster had posted once. Dunno.
RJK

[Rhuvein]

Thanks Rossik. I'm feeling pretty vital; these days (knock on wormwood). Heavy into the Machine Level, . . .

Excellent! You have my attention, young fellow.

Great blog - re: Machine Level. I really look forward to seeing it published.

All the best, my friend ~ hope to see and game with you soon!

Btw, when was the last time you were in the Realms of Franquefort? It's probably changed/grown since you last ventured 'round here. I've paid for 2 new high schools and 1 junior high in the last few years!! Yoiks, my taxes are outrageous. Might be time to move back to Stoink or ~ Lake Geneva!!

Rhu.

[MajorKookie]

Thanks Rossik. I'm feeling pretty vital; these days (knock on wormwood). Heavy into the Machine Level, . . .

Excellent! You have my attention, young fellow.

Great blog - re: Machine Level. I really look forward to seeing it published.

All the best, my friend ~ hope to see and game with you soon!

Btw, when was the last time you were in the Realms of Franquefort? It's probably changed/grown since you last ventured 'round here. I've paid for 2 new high schools and 1 junior high in the last few years!! Yoiks, my taxes are outrageous. Might be time to move back to Stoink or ~ Lake Geneva!!

Rhu.

Hi Rhu,

Yeah, Illinois is broke and due to that they are breaking its citizens. Sad times.

I am glad that you enjoyed the blog; and there's another "Taking D&D "Back" to its Future Level" that you might enjoy as well; link to blog is below.

The Machine Level is pouring out smoke. As _everything_ on/in it is new, it's taking longer to craft, of course, but the creative time given to it will please even the most jaded D&D player.

Take Care--RJK

[rossik]

hi rob!

glad to hear that the machine level is doing fine!

i dont remember if this was already asked, but if so, forgive me for doing it again:

how do you determine PC level for a adventure?
i imagine that you first create the adventure, challenges, monsters, traps, etc, and then the recomended level for characters.

could you share something about your process of doing that?

thanks!

[MajorKookie]

hi rob!

glad to hear that the machine level is doing fine!

i dont remember if this was already asked, but if so, forgive me for doing it again:

how do you determine PC level for a adventure?
i imagine that you first create the adventure, challenges, monsters, traps, etc, and then the recomended level for characters.

could you share something about your process of doing that?

thanks!

Correct. I have an idea going in while designing and choosing the elements of what range (PC level spread) I am crafting it for and then at the end appraise that against the actual whole, thus arriving at the calculation. But keep in mind that I normally craft very challenging adventures where a combination of real thinking, tactics and quick distillations of ongoing elements are paramount to PC survival, so these are no "walk right in" and start bashing away adventures. If DMs have groups that are normally used to less strangeness, less demanding involvement, and to less thinking, then this combined thinking-action-strangeness will start mounting PC attrition very quickly. I write them the way EGG and I DMed/played them 1972 onward in our Greyhawk campaign. The Machine Level will be an extreme example in this case as every situation, monster, etc. is ALL NEW. Repeat: Every instance, every particle, is NEW. With that, its design will push this newness always to the adventure's forefront (where I prefer it to be, or else I couldn't, and wouldn't, write these). Because of this, and depending on each group who plays it, level adjustments (upwards) might have to be made. I am assuming with the final level-range placement that this type of challenging adventure is 1) well known to my fans; 2) is preferred by those who purchase it.

Cheers!--RJK

[rossik]

hi rob!

glad to hear that the machine level is doing fine!

i dont remember if this was already asked, but if so, forgive me for doing it again:

how do you determine PC level for a adventure?
i imagine that you first create the adventure, challenges, monsters, traps, etc, and then the recomended level for characters.

could you share something about your process of doing that?

thanks!

Correct. I have an idea going in while designing and choosing the elements of what range (PC level spread) I am crafting it for and then at the end appraise that against the actual whole, thus arriving at the calculation. But keep in mind that I normally craft very challenging adventures where a combination of real thinking, tactics and quick distillations of ongoing elements are paramount to PC survival, so these are no "walk right in" and start bashing away adventures. If DMs have groups that are normally used to less strangeness, less demanding involvement, and to less thinking, then this combined thinking-action-strangeness will start mounting PC attrition very quickly. I write them the way EGG and I DMed/played them 1972 onward in our Greyhawk campaign. The Machine Level will be an extreme example in this case as every situation, monster, etc. is ALL NEW. Repeat: Every instance, every particle, is NEW. With that, its design will push this newness always to the adventure's forefront (where I prefer it to be, or else I couldn't, and wouldn't, write these). Because of this, and depending on each group who plays it, level adjustments (upwards) might have to be made. I am assuming with the final level-range placement that this type of challenging adventure is 1) well known to my fans; 2) is preferred by those who purchase it.

Cheers!--RJK

thanks rob!

do you calculate this by monster HD?
what about traps? i mean, traps dont have HD, so how can you determinate that a simple pit trap is a challange for X level, but not for Y level?

[MajorKookie]

Well let me answer by asking you a question: Do you design and populate dungeons for your game, Rossik?

Tick, Tick, Tick...

And if you do, how do you calculate such things?

In all fairness, most of it is a calculation along with gut feeling. There is no such preciseness involved to make it scientific (as many here seem to think is possible with this and many other subjects). It's part gut, part playing, part math, part balancing act, part DM choice (and that means those who use it and tend to balance out according to their needs as they are aware of them), etc., etc. There's no one way; and if there were, someone would have asked me a long time before now.

I'll await you answer, of course...

RJK

[rossik]

Well let me answer by asking you a question: Do you design and populate dungeons for your game, Rossik?

Tick, Tick, Tick...

And if you do, how do you calculate such things?

In all fairness, most of it is a calculation along with gut feeling. There is no such preciseness involved to make it scientific (as many here seem to think is possible with this and many other subjects). It's part gut, part playing, part math, part balancing act, part DM choice (and that means those who use it and tend to balance out according to their needs as they are aware of them), etc., etc. There's no one way; and if there were, someone would have asked me a long time before now.

I'll await you answer, of course...

RJK

i see your point, rob


i create a dungeon with some ideas on what to "fill", then i challenge players with those creatures/traps, taking some in or out.
this words of yours explain better "those who use it and tend to balance out according to their needs as they are aware of them".

thanks again rob

[MajorKookie]

You're always welcome, Rossik.

[winemaker81]

Well let me answer by asking you a question: Do you design and populate dungeons for your game, Rossik?

Tick, Tick, Tick...

And if you do, how do you calculate such things?

I follow this topic (dungeon design) with particular interest. Your method is pretty much what I'd expect -- there is no exact answer. In teaching my children how to DM I realized just now much is intuition/experience.

Tim K commented recently that he aims for 6 to 8 times as much monster hp as party hit points in an adventure. I plan total XP so that fighters level after ~5 adventures. Both are post-creation checks. How do you check yours for level?

Why ask you??? It occurred to me that while we can't gauge quantity, you probably have the longest DMing duration of, well, those still living.

[MajorKookie]

OK. If I am structuring an adventure for 4-6 players, say 9-12th level, then I have to balance out the low<>to high ends in that mix. The ranges are not just for convenience but to allow the latitude needed by each DM/group to choose from within them. My balance point is probably right in the middle (that is, 5 players at 10-11th level), a middle I adhere to as a gauge in almost every differing range instances. Hope that makes sense. That's the easy step #1. The rest flies of into the realm of intuition due to "ages" of doing this.

Now. As for Tim's method, i cannot say--that works for him. However, there can be (and in my design thrust, there always are) other considerations besides monster HD in balancing encounter design--and here I mean balance which is probably 2-3 sides left and/or 2-3 sides right of the middle, or else there would be no rising challenge. IOW, a higher level monster, say 15, would not not contribute greatly to the curve of Monster HD vs. Party HD so the offset is not in the HD in this case. The offset (or ultra challenge here) is that through my design _intent_ to make the said monster terrible at dishing out damage (magical or special or physical) and in reducing same. I do not play with the same variable ranges as so easily presented in AD&D MM or other templated designs--I twist them this way and that and alter perspectives and ratios while doing so, so a finite view as expressed will be different in every adopted creation (i.e., from design #1 to design #2, etc.) as inserted and implemented. Due to that, there is no firm answer to this unless one flattens the curve, which in my opinion, means that you flatten the design to a numeric--and to me that suggests a linear design path in most every case, and most often, IMHO, suggests less creative tinkering, the latter which I am dependent on.

Let me go back to the 15th level monster to illustrate. I am left with something totally new here; I could find a comparative for expressing the numeric--let's say, the Iron Golem in WG5. Now I have an intuitive base only as nothing is strictly by the book as instantly and numerically cross comparable. You see the problem? We are fast approaching what 3.0+ did with a CR system. How would one rate the WG5 Iron Golem then? It doesn't rate, as it is special as players need to find the means not at their disposal to defeat it and then do so. So, what you ask for has too many variables just through posing one extreme example. It has to be intuited from a constant application of inputs and outputs which tend to be unique to each person, before, during and after the design. That is why Tim adopts a design path suitable for himself; that is why you do (and both of you have your exit analysis in place), and I rely upon no such courses, as I am not working in the same paradigm as Tim, or as yourself (XP tracking is not my concern).

Confused yet? I am. I have never been asked that question in all my years of design and what I naturally take for granted over 37 years just came spilling out. Now ask me about something really hard next time.

[winemaker81]

Confused yet? I am. I have never been asked that question in all my years of design and what I naturally take for granted over 37 years just came spilling out. Now ask me about something really hard next time.

Funny -- while the sentences themselves (in your explanation) were sometimes confusing, I understood your overall intent. Kind of like the fact that people can read a sentence in which the words are all spells wrong as long as the first and last letter of each word is correct.

My method for designing an adventure is to pick a theme, say giants (which is my current story arc). That makes the pick of the majority of the monsters simple -- some type of giant as the primary, maybe others as adjuncts, and then goblinoids (orcs, etc) as servants. Next I leaf through my monster collection (self-produced, Dragon Mag, internet, etc) and the published books (MM, MMII, FF) for whatever catches my eye. I make a list, then compare to my already stocked monsters, looking for things that "fit" into the adventure. They may not "fit" with the giants (in this case) but there is a place in the adventure for them. Most encounters the party can deal with, some more easily than others. Some will require good strategy and/or tactics on the party's part to beat, and some will require the Nike Defense. Then I look it all over and check the feel -- does it "feel" right? Hardly scientific, and harder-n-heck to teach someone!

THEN I calc XP and do my post check -- using a rule of thumb I saw a while back, monsters are 1/4 to 1/3 of the total XP for the adventure, I determine overall XP and check against character needs for leveling. While I generally say ~5 adventures for a fighter to level, that's just a middle ground -- each adventure will fall in a range of 3 to 8 (mostly 4 to 6). Yeah, that's a fairly large range, but this is all an art regardless of how much science anyone may try to apply ...

Not that I plan the XP for each character that tightly -- simply, experience has taught me that range of XP will produce an adventure that is a good fit. Please note my post-check has been in use for only about 3 years. Prior to that I did things totally by feel, and had an epiphany where I guessed the range and then verified it with the total XP awarded in previous adventures.


I wasn't trying to put you on the spot, nor compare you to Tim. Just looking for new ideas that your experience in D&D may have produced.

[MajorKookie]

Yeah. I understand. I only mentioned the HD<> "Tim" quotient as it is indeed a common way that people judge distribution--but in that there are so many intangibles influencing the whole and not that alone.

As for XP, remember that this was arbitrary, though scaled/weighted to begin with. EGG and I started tinkering with a scale prior to Greyhawk Supplement #1 when we used as a sliding scale guide in adjudicating XP in the Play-tests; but they were always being amended as we thought up different creatures and their powers. It became an accountant's nightmare; and pretty soon I was averaging it all in my head, anyway--back to scientific-non science.

Cheers!

RJK

[kaskoid]

It might have helped if I hadn't given such a sparse answer in the first place. My "6-8" figure is really just a jumping-off point. As Rob has stated, so very many other things go into the mix besides stuff to kill. Also keep in mind that my campaigns never saw a 1:1 ratio on XP to GP, and I ran a rather depressed economy. (The economy of a campaign is intrinsic to the design and flow of the events; when someone scored a huge haul, prices inflated. It is all about "M".)

I'll go now, Rob. See ya at Gary Con.

[MajorKookie]

It might have helped if I hadn't given such a sparse answer in the first place. My "6-8" figure is really just a jumping-off point. As Rob has stated, so very many other things go into the mix besides stuff to kill. Also keep in mind that my campaigns never saw a 1:1 ratio on XP to GP, and I ran a rather depressed economy. (The economy of a campaign is intrinsic to the design and flow of the events; when someone scored a huge haul, prices inflated. It is all about "M".)

I'll go now, Rob. See ya at Gary Con.

Yes. March will be coming up fast enough. Tim.

As for the rest, that's what makes the game fun, the many variables we all use. It's like a large patch of tomatoes of every type; and speaking of which, time to make the
sauce for tomorrow.

[winemaker81]

It might have helped if I hadn't given such a sparse answer in the first place. My "6-8" figure is really just a jumping-off point. As Rob has stated, so very many other things go into the mix besides stuff to kill. Also keep in mind that my campaigns never saw a 1:1 ratio on XP to GP, and I ran a rather depressed economy. (The economy of a campaign is intrinsic to the design and flow of the events; when someone scored a huge haul, prices inflated. It is all about "M".)

Tim -- your answer was satisfactory. There is no answer to the question of how to design a dungeon -- at this point I'd say the best metric we can impose is an after-check, and even then it's still mostly "feel". I'd be suspicious of anyone claiming to have a formula for creating a dungeon.

It might have helped if I hadn't given such a sparse answer in the first place. My "6-8" figure is really just a jumping-off point. As Rob has stated, so very many other things go into the mix besides stuff to kill. Also keep in mind that my campaigns never saw a 1:1 ratio on XP to GP, and I ran a rather depressed economy. (The economy of a campaign is intrinsic to the design and flow of the events; when someone scored a huge haul, prices inflated. It is all about "M".)

As for the rest, that's what makes the game fun, the many variables we all use. It's like a large patch of tomatoes of every type; and speaking of which, time to make the sauce for tomorrow.

My thought here is not so much for myself. I fumbled my way through learning to DM and now have the experience to make things work for me. I'm thinking about teaching the new DMs. From what Tim has written DM learning curve was an issue 35 years ago, and while the progression of OOP D&D games made things better, it's still far from simple.

I have leafed through the 4.x books while in the bookstore -- while the game system isn't my cup of tea, WotC has made some remarkable advances in teaching newbies how to play & DM. Some might argue it's more of a cookie-cutter approach, but that's how we learn. We mimic what exists and when we become comfortable we expand. The history of D&D from 1972 to 1986 is an excellent example of expansion, growth and evolution.

So I'll leave you both with that thought -- what can we all do to make DMing easier to learn?

[MajorKookie]

It might have helped if I hadn't given such a sparse answer in the first place. My "6-8" figure is really just a jumping-off point. As Rob has stated, so very many other things go into the mix besides stuff to kill. Also keep in mind that my campaigns never saw a 1:1 ratio on XP to GP, and I ran a rather depressed economy. (The economy of a campaign is intrinsic to the design and flow of the events; when someone scored a huge haul, prices inflated. It is all about "M".)

Tim -- your answer was satisfactory. There is no answer to the question of how to design a dungeon -- at this point I'd say the best metric we can impose is an after-check, and even then it's still mostly "feel". I'd be suspicious of anyone claiming to have a formula for creating a dungeon.

It might have helped if I hadn't given such a sparse answer in the first place. My "6-8" figure is really just a jumping-off point. As Rob has stated, so very many other things go into the mix besides stuff to kill. Also keep in mind that my campaigns never saw a 1:1 ratio on XP to GP, and I ran a rather depressed economy. (The economy of a campaign is intrinsic to the design and flow of the events; when someone scored a huge haul, prices inflated. It is all about "M".)

As for the rest, that's what makes the game fun, the many variables we all use. It's like a large patch of tomatoes of every type; and speaking of which, time to make the sauce for tomorrow.

My thought here is not so much for myself. I fumbled my way through learning to DM and now have the experience to make things work for me. I'm thinking about teaching the new DMs. From what Tim has written DM learning curve was an issue 35 years ago, and while the progression of OOP D&D games made things better, it's still far from simple.

I have leafed through the 4.x books while in the bookstore -- while the game system isn't my cup of tea, WotC has made some remarkable advances in teaching newbies how to play & DM. Some might argue it's more of a cookie-cutter approach, but that's how we learn. We mimic what exists and when we become comfortable we expand. The history of D&D from 1972 to 1986 is an excellent example of expansion, growth and evolution.

So I'll leave you both with that thought -- what can we all do to make DMing easier to learn?

Make the "rules" as OPEN and as SIMPLE (but not simplistic, rather "elegant") as possible. Comparison example: It's inevitably easier to learn to ride a bicycle than it is to fly a jet. I tend toward bikes in rules and then let the imaginative inputs in their OPEN framework dictate creative ends with the crafting of adventures and source material. The latter is where the creativity belongs, and not subsumed in endless rules which hamper the real end-game.