Address my fears (please be civil, inflamatory issue within)

[Tigh & Dyack]

I would have already written an arcade game to support OSRIC but I found something on their book mark that stopped me cold. The symbol for OSRIC is K&K. I don't like that symbol at all and want nothing to do with it. Further race still exists as a word in the game when class, or even better "role", will suffice. The mimetic quality of these symbols and words with generation Y make the whole project a non starter.

"Something to be handled like a contagion and not passed along, how they will view it is."
-Yoda Voice

Osric is art, no doubt about it. But humanity has already found it's way through that garden of words. It has taken up roles and left race behind. For a game that claims to offer role playing there are an awful large number of races before I get a sense of how many roles I have to choose from. One may also have heard of it as the feeling of the power trip. Like the first play of CHAINMAIL or any wargame where you are handed hundreds of thousands in gold and told to purchase an army. The feeling of being offered control of all the power in the universe.




I write openGL and make videos about my early friends playing D&D. This is how I deal with the issue. If I made a video about the first time I encountered race I would simply not use the word at all and move past it quickly.


/sample video start

My first DM one day had me roll up a new character, asked me my stats and then consulted the PHB. "You're a dwarf." he said.

I take this to be a role. Nothing more than my part in the story. I'm confused when he says a question I still haven't found an answer to.

"What class do you want to be."

"What classes are there?" I ask.

"What are your stats?"

"Ummmm" I look down and start reading them off. "Strength 14 ..."

"Ok. you're a fighter."

And we play. Unfortunately for me I have a wisdom of 16. So it's the life of a fighter instead of a priest. The dwarven fighter Tigh went through his first 3 campaigns...

/ sample video end


I don't feel right proceeding in any way until the role vs race discussion is had. Race should be discarded outright for genus. Role should be up front and the first thing rolled for. I've always felt that someone shouldn't just criticize but should also offer a solution so there I have two.

The important thing to me is the magical effect the rules have on first time players. This must not be lost. A series of random numbers next to words that describe your character. A kind of "luck of the draw" feeling when you figure out what genus you qualify for. And lastly your role choice and the feeling that your character's life in this world is starting to come under your own control.

This used to be achieved by the ability, race, class just like in OSRIC. But covertly this decodes to say that "race comes before class." Can this be turned into some non inflammatory words instead. Like ability, genus, and role. If we want generation Y to know what we are _really_ saying, these are the words to use anyway.









Tigh & Dyack

[Saunatonttu]

I feel sad for anyone who thinks ANY word is "inflammatory" or "offensive".

[chris107]

I think you're been a bit over sensitive.

In many decades of involvement in RPG's I've never come accross race problems. Either at the table or in the game; other than those meant to be inherent in the system. ie: Half-Orcs vs. Dwarves hatred.

In my humble opinion political correctness has no place in the game I play, nor does racism.

Best

Chris

[Saunatonttu]

Heck, even Gary's setting had in-built HUMAN to HUMAN racial discrmination/racism with the White Power Scarlett Brotherhood. If "generation Y" can't handle things, they can go do something safe. Like knit. Or write PC-loadletters.

Have I ever told about when we devised homebrewn races as kids, white people got bonuses to mental stats and penalties to physical ones with black people getting the opposite? (gamebalance, you know). Oh, to be eight again and not know any better

[Turanil]

The symbol for OSRIC is K&K. I don't like that symbol at all and want nothing to do with it. Further race still exists as a word in the game when class, or even better "role", will suffice. The mimetic quality of these symbols and words with generation Y make the whole project a non starter.

Not sure to understand what you are speaking about...

-- K&K means Knights and Knaves; I searched on Google and wiki for something offensive and didn't find anything special.
-- Race could be replaced by ethnic background, but so what besides sounding pedant?
-- Generation Y?

[Saunatonttu]

I think K&K lacks one more K to be able to take your baby away.

[Necron 99]

I would have already written an arcade game to support OSRIC but I found something on their book mark that stopped me cold. The symbol for OSRIC is K&K. I don't like that symbol at all and want nothing to do with it. Further race still exists as a word in the game when class, or even better "role", will suffice. The mimetic quality of these symbols and words with generation Y make the whole project a non starter.

"Something to be handled like a contagion and not passed along, how they will view it is."
-Yoda Voice

Osric is art, no doubt about it. But humanity has already found it's way through that garden of words. It has taken up roles and left race behind. For a game that claims to offer role playing there are an awful large number of races before I get a sense of how many roles I have to choose from. One may also have heard of it as the feeling of the power trip. Like the first play of CHAINMAIL or any wargame where you are handed hundreds of thousands in gold and told to purchase an army. The feeling of being offered control of all the power in the universe.

I don't feel right proceeding in any way until the role vs race discussion is had. Race should be discarded outright for genus. Role should be up front and the first thing rolled for. I've always felt that someone shouldn't just criticize but should also offer a solution so there I have two.

The important thing to me is the magical effect the rules have on first time players. This must not be lost. A series of random numbers next to words that describe your character. A kind of "luck of the draw" feeling when you figure out what genus you qualify for. And lastly your role choice and the feeling that your character's life in this world is starting to come under your own control.

This used to be achieved by the ability, race, class just like in OSRIC. But covertly this decodes to say that "race comes before class." Can this be turned into some non inflammatory words instead. Like ability, genus, and role. If we want generation Y to know what we are _really_ saying, these are the words to use anyway.

Politically correct bulls**t for the lose.

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Mach Front]

Don't worry.
Your fears are totally unfounded.

[zarathustra]

Those words have perfectly valid meanings. They are given an inflammatory slant only in the way you seem to have perceived them, perhaps viewing them through modern cultural ideas. Any further perusal of the game will quickly identify that race and class aren't used to degrade or devalue any group, just to identify species and category, sheesh if you can't handle seeing the words race and class in print then just use species and category.

But you realise you may be playing a vaguely historical game with a feudal setting in which people ARE divided into distinct social CLASSES, graded above and below each other with some considered lesser and others more worthy, with the differences often spelled out in law and value. For centuries, by and large, this was accepted and regarded as good and right, modern notions of freedom and equality simply didn't exist.

You may be making mountains out of molehills here, I am being civil but do you think you may be being just a tad precious?

[Saunatonttu]

But you realise you may be playing a vaguely historical game with a feudal setting in which people ARE divided into distinct social CLASSES, graded above and below each other with some considered lesser and others more worthy, with the differences often spelled out in law and value. For centuries, by and large, this was accepted and regarded as good and right, modern notions of freedom and equality simply didn't exist.

Nothing stops from making a game of D&D into a libertarian soapbox where the Chaotic Good adventurers topple the whole system of Lafwul feodal oppression and free the common man. I usually endorse this by ruling that nobody of noble birth can ever have a class - they are always 0-levelers. Most campaigns I run revolve around toppling governments and religions so the free men can live free when the dust settles.

[Grim]

I think you are jousting with windmills, Mr. Quixote.

[apprentice]

Demi-human class restrictions and level limits are discriminatory!! There I said it.

[Premier]

I needed to read the comments to realise what T&D's problem is: apparently the fact D&D uses the word "race", which is, apparently, inherently and automatically racist and wrong.

Having said that, I couldn't help but notice that T&D has written his entire post in black letters which I find similarly inherently racist and wrong. I'd much rather he went and edited his post to an African American colour.

[Stormcrow]

African American colour.

Irony. U has it.

[zarathustra]

But you realise you may be playing a vaguely historical game with a feudal setting in which people ARE divided into distinct social CLASSES, graded above and below each other with some considered lesser and others more worthy, with the differences often spelled out in law and value. For centuries, by and large, this was accepted and regarded as good and right, modern notions of freedom and equality simply didn't exist.

Nothing stops from making a game of D&D into a libertarian soapbox where the Chaotic Good adventurers topple the whole system of Lafwul feodal oppression and free the common man. I usually endorse this by ruling that nobody of noble birth can ever have a class - they are always 0-levelers. Most campaigns I run revolve around toppling governments and religions so the free men can live free when the dust settles.

Reverse eliteism! Why can't nobles have a class? They could be just as talented and ambitious as anyone else, kings used to ride into battle with their men etc That seems discriminatory to me

hehe and it's only be so long before those rascally, unorganised chaotics are back under the heel of the re-organised lawfuls!

[Technomancer]

Further race still exists as a word in the game when class, or even better "role", will suffice.

Nah, it's cool, I have friends who are demihumans, I can say it.

[zarathustra]

Further race still exists as a word in the game when class, or even better "role", will suffice.

Nah, it's cool, I have friends who are demihumans, I can say it.

[Mannahnin]

I’ve never seen this as an issue in D&D. While I’ve known of people who thought of it as such, for my money D&D has always had an implicit theme of cultural diversity and equality. Teams of adventurers are usually multiracial and multicultural, and all work together to achieve a common good.

I think the fears you’re articulating are largely unfounded, and perhaps come perilously close to the pseudo-intellectual wankery of the author of the following site: http://raceindnd.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Saunatonttu]

hehe and it's only be so long before those rascally, unorganised chaotics are back under the heel of the re-organised lawfuls!

Indeed! The lawfuls sneak in while the chaotics are suffering the hangover from the victory celebrations, the legions take control and then it is time to start the next campaign.

[phantasm72]

I have to say Im compeltely lost to the point that the OP is trying to make...

[mordrin]

I would have already written an arcade game to support OSRIC but I found something on their book mark that stopped me cold. The symbol for OSRIC is K&K. I don't like that symbol at all and want nothing to do with it. Further race still exists as a word in the game when class, or even better "role", will suffice. The mimetic quality of these symbols and words with generation Y make the whole project a non starter.

"Something to be handled like a contagion and not passed along, how they will view it is."
-Yoda Voice

Osric is art, no doubt about it. But humanity has already found it's way through that garden of words. It has taken up roles and left race behind. For a game that claims to offer role playing there are an awful large number of races before I get a sense of how many roles I have to choose from. One may also have heard of it as the feeling of the power trip. Like the first play of CHAINMAIL or any wargame where you are handed hundreds of thousands in gold and told to purchase an army. The feeling of being offered control of all the power in the universe.




I write openGL and make videos about my early friends playing D&D. This is how I deal with the issue. If I made a video about the first time I encountered race I would simply not use the word at all and move past it quickly.


/sample video start

My first DM one day had me roll up a new character, asked me my stats and then consulted the PHB. "You're a dwarf." he said.

I take this to be a role. Nothing more than my part in the story. I'm confused when he says a question I still haven't found an answer to.

"What class do you want to be."

"What classes are there?" I ask.

"What are your stats?"

"Ummmm" I look down and start reading them off. "Strength 14 ..."

"Ok. you're a fighter."

And we play. Unfortunately for me I have a wisdom of 16. So it's the life of a fighter instead of a priest. The dwarven fighter Tigh went through his first 3 campaigns...

/ sample video end


I don't feel right proceeding in any way until the role vs race discussion is had. Race should be discarded outright for genus. Role should be up front and the first thing rolled for. I've always felt that someone shouldn't just criticize but should also offer a solution so there I have two.

The important thing to me is the magical effect the rules have on first time players. This must not be lost. A series of random numbers next to words that describe your character. A kind of "luck of the draw" feeling when you figure out what genus you qualify for. And lastly your role choice and the feeling that your character's life in this world is starting to come under your own control.

This used to be achieved by the ability, race, class just like in OSRIC. But covertly this decodes to say that "race comes before class." Can this be turned into some non inflammatory words instead. Like ability, genus, and role. If we want generation Y to know what we are _really_ saying, these are the words to use anyway.


Tigh & Dyack

The replies have remained commendably civil. But they are devolving into silliness - because your concerns are silly, too.

Replacing "class" with "role" is a poor substitution. Class is something you are, role is something you do. By calling Thief (or Rogue) your "role", that suggests that all thieves should be played the same way, because they all have the same role.

"Make the whole project a non-starter"? For you, maybe. However, you definitely don't speak for the majority of Generation Y. D&D 3/4E and their CPRG cousins use the same terminology and sell quite well to Generation Y. In 25+ years, this marks the first time I've ever heard anybody express a concern about it.

As far as "race", the term is most often used to make distinctions between humans, based on shared characteristics (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Race" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), not between humans and something else, although that's because in the real world, there are no other intelligent humanoids to distinguish between.
Genus might be technically correct, but if you think replacing "race: human, race: dwarf, race: elf" with "genus:homo, genus: barbatus, genus: elegans" is going to make the game more palatable and accessible - think again.

[MrNexx]

I have to say Im compeltely lost to the point that the OP is trying to make...

The only things I can think of is:

1) He's mistaking K&K for KKK.
2) He's mistaking K&K for H&H (HH being a common white supremacist thing; either "Heil Hitler" or "Hengist and Horsa", the traditional Anglo-Saxon leaders of the settlement of Romano-British Britain).
3) He's otherwise a complete loon, and his logic does not apply to the rest of us.

[Ghost_of_Vortigern]

I have to say Im compeltely lost to the point that the OP is trying to make...

I felt the same. I truly had no clue what he meant at all, until I read the replies and pieced it together from context.

I want that five minutes of my life back.

[themattjon]

IBL

[SimperingToad]

Words are not inflammatory until used in a manner intended to harm. For example:

"Police have issued a description of the perpetrator. He is a black man in his mid-30s..."
versus:
"You filthy, black so-and-so!"

Your fears are completely unfounded. And moreover, are the result of a constant barrage of psychobabble utilising brain-washing techniques and fostered by those who desire nothing more than to control every aspect of your life, even your right to think and use words for yourself.

I find it odd that you are worried so much about words such as 'race' being a label, but you seem to take pride in being labelled as part of 'Generation Y'.

I do not require anyone to call me caucasian, a European-American, Generation XYZ, or anything else. I am me, and that's all there is to it. If I cannot shrug off being called a name, then I am still a child in thought.

Luke 6:29 "To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also." - Insults mean nothing. They can only harm if you accept them as Truth.

[Saunatonttu]

I am an <expletive deleted>.

But the current society has decided you all need to call me Niceness Deficient.

[Thorkhammer]

My suggestion would be to replace the term "race" with "species" and it might put your fears to rest. Eliminate the 1/2 elf, 1/2 orc, and that pretty much nails it.

[serleran]

Don't forget to add der fuhrer as a monster controlling entity.

[gnome@home]

Kooks & Kangaroos?

You know, this is actually pretty interesting. I mean, D&D has been accused before of being associated with the occult and satanism especially, but I can't remember anyone linking it to the KKK or other racist organizations. And this is despite the fact that there are racial themes within D&D, such as the racial conflicts described in the 1e PHB (and various other places), the nature of the Drow, etc. And yet, despite all that, D&D never got a bad rap about promoting racism. So why all of a sudden, would this change?

BTW, if it really bothers you, why not change "race" to "species"? That would actually be more accurate anyway, since humans and the various demihumans and humanoids are completely different. In fact, it's pretty common in many campaigns for them to not be sexually compatible (which doesn't mean they can't or won't try, but that's another story...)

[Oxlar]

Pollitical Correctness MUST DIE!