[BFRPG] Bard development, at the behest of Solo

[steveman]

Ooh. A bard who has the hit dice and combat stats of a cleric, but without the weapon limitations (making him like a thief). Limited thief abilities, to balance the higher hit dice, plus some morale or influence powers related to the musical or storytelling abilities.

Anyone want to take this on? Start a new thread, please...

... okay

I had a different "bard" class set up, but it had some wonky spellcasting abilities that in retrospect were not good as the looked on paper. But some tweaking allows for what is posted below. It is incomplete and needs some help for sure.

+++

Bard (thief sub-class)
Bards are professional poets, minstrels, musicians and storytellers who travel the land in search of tales to tell. Some work for a local lord exalting the heroic deeds the esteemed noble, be them truthful or fancy. Whereas others are adventurers in their own right who use their sharp wit and dashing smile to woo the hearts of friend and foe alike. Bards are a jack-of-all-trades learning a little bit of everything in their travels.
Bards are witty, nimble and charismatic people. Bards must have a minimum of 13 in charisma, and a minimum of 9 in dexterity, with charisma being their prime requisite. Bards advance as clerics do in regard to experience needed per level and hit dice, and as thieves in regards to attack bonus and saves. All races allowed to be a thief may be a bard.
Bards may wear up to chain armor, use shields and may use any weapon a thief can use. Wearing chain armor can interfere with the use of some of the Bard's thieving skills.

Thieving skills: Bards have thieving skills as if they were a thief three levels lower than their current level. The skill progression of levels 1-3 are listed below.

Bardic thieving skills for levels 1-3

Code: Select all

Level  OL     RT     PP     MS     CW      H      L
1      10     15     15     10     65      3     15
2      15     20     20     15     70      5     20
3      20     25     25     20     75      7     25

Performance: Bards are storytellers and musicians, bards have a +1 bonus to reaction rolls for others who have witnessed their performance or know of their reputation. Also, if the secondary skills optional rule presented in the Olde Dungeoneer’s Almanack are being used they gain a +2 bonus to perform skill tests.

?Lore: An ability that allows them to determine abilities and features of places and items based on the tales they know.

?Inspiration: Some sort of morale-based buff they can grant to their allies.

?Taunt: Some sort of rage-inducing insult that makes the foe act all stupid.

[SmootRK]

nice start. My 2 cents so far:

bards are not really the sneaky types, in my opinion, seeming more extroverted "look at me" entertainer types. I would lose move silently and hide.

Tougher than a standard thief, clerical hd (BFRPG d6, not the thief d4), likewise fight on par with cleric.

I would grant a Read languages ability. Likewise, perhaps some sort of "tongues" ability to allow rudimentary communication even when languages unknown.

I would look to the Jester Supplement and give them Tumble (coming from dance/entertaining)

Ideas for 'Songs':
Restful Song (improve healing from rest)
Courage Song (morale boosting)
Marching Song (increase move rate, decrease any fatigue effect from march)
Toiling Chant (fatigue reduction)
Soothing Meditative Song (faster spell memorization or prayers)
Pied Piper (animal soothing/charm-like effect)

These are meant only as fodder for thought, and do not necessary need to be used. More ideas will probably come later.

[steveman]

The Cleric's HD was an oversight I intended to change when modifying the old info for this thread. Fixed. I bet that whole line could use some better wording. anyone wanna take a crack at it?

And yes, some sort of linguistic ability is called for.

[Copperblade]

Here's my 2c:

1) I like the idea of giving bards limited thief skills, but I might just as well remove hide in shadows, move silently, backstab, and leave them at 1 level behind a real thief instead of 3 levels.

2a) To keep bards more interesting for the player, I'd make a smallish list of bard songs (max 4 per level) and just say that they gain them the same rate as a cleric, only 2 levels lower. This means they won't have magic when starting out.

2b) Or alternatively, have a set of songs or abilities that increase their bonus with the level of the bard. I would just use the cleric's number of first level spells as a guideline (2 levels lower than the bard):

level 1 - 3 : none
level 4: +1 (or equivalent)
5 - 8 : +2
9 - 12: +3
13 - 17: +4
etc.

3) Bard Songs :

• Should require some form of music, and continuous play. i.e. the bard must be away from melee and not making other manuvers. At least it should not be easy to do much of anything else (except travel of course!)
• Duration should be while playing, all effects should occur after a full round or turn of playing. There's no "getting a song off" like "getting a spell off." Playing for only partial time, has no benefit.
• Effects should be for groups and/or areas.
• Effects should be gradual and confer bonuses, gradual healing, or other passive items. (+1 to hit, +1 to defense, +1 to saves, +1 hp per hour, a soft glowing light, increased distance traveled per day, etc.)

This way a Bard is good for morale as having one in your party will probably mean less deaths on journeys, quicker healing, more energy, etc.

[SmootRK]

another thing that I was thinking is that the song bonuses or benefits should be tied to Charisma bonus. This makes a class where charisma is actually important, like strength is to a fighter, or dexterity is to a thief. They need not have an actual bonus (doing one point or equivalent of benefit), but having exceptional charisma will certain enhance the character.

[Solomoriah]

Obviously, Charisma should be the Prime Requisite.

I'm liking where this is going...

[SmootRK]

more thoughts:

I believe some sort of combo class situation is the best way to create bards who have spell casting. While Magic-User might seem appropriate based on 2e and later editions, I think trying to integrate the Druid comes closer to the original concepts (based mostly on the 1e weirdo multiple classes approach and the initial inspiration Celtic style bard). Perhaps an either/or approach (MU or Druid) can be used. I think Illusionist might even be an option that some might like.

Additionally, when such combo classes are utilized, a few bard only spells could be sprinkled into the spell list. There are plenty of bard spell offerings that can be referenced for ideas to enhance spell lists.

[Solomoriah]

Combination classes that only make sense for humans... interesting.

Druid/Bard
Magic-User/Bard
Illusionist/Bard
Cleric/Bard

Honestly, all of those make sense, and IMO only for humans or half-humans.

[SmootRK]

I often don't really pay attention to traditional race/class limitations (at least in my own campaigns), but yes... in keeping with the traditional Human (and half-elf) bard, it would make sense to allow the combo class.

Like I said before, generally I prefer a non-magical bard offering... but I can certainly see that others might like more magic, especially if they had the influence of 2e and later editions. Seems easy enough to work into the plans.

[Solomoriah]

I prefer the idea of them getting magic via a combination class rather than as a basic class feature.

[SmootRK]

I prefer the idea of them getting magic via a combination class rather than as a basic class feature.

yes, especially when they get access to a few Bard spells that typical casters do not get access to. Allows for a pretty good degree of variation depending on the bardic background chosen (druid based, magical, illusory, priesthood).

It gives me an idea. Perhaps the Bardic Colleges could come into play here, with each Bardic College espousing a certain sort of caster (though not necessarily required). Non-magical Bards are welcome in any of the 'colleges' that feel right to them, while the [name needed] college encourages or leans towards MU spell casters. The [name?] Entertainers College leans towards Illusionists. The College of Cantors often has clerics. The traditional traveling minstrel (of Celtic style origin) have many members with druidic outlook. This need not be completely spelled out in any Supplement/Almanack, but could be worded very vaguely so that the GM can work it into campaigns.

[Solomoriah]

IMC, I'd have different combination classes representing different regional or cultural traditions; druidic bards in a heavily forested, rural country, illusionist bards in a more urban setting, etc.

I'm not so much in favor of giving them special bardic magic; rather, I'd like to see them gaining non-magical bardic capabilities tied to the class. Done like thief skills, with rising percentages. Of course, magic-user or illusionist crossed bards might have spells they keep secret from the more traditional sorts... not restricted in a game sense, but simply held away from the uninitiated.

[SmootRK]

Perhaps a few spells can be developed where the caster must meet certain criteria... for example, by this I mean musical instrument used as material component, or song notes as part of the verbal component... or simply just certain criteria within the spell description such as "after successfully 'inspiring' the crowd (by bard effect, either by the caster or associated party member), the caster can cast XXX spell upon the crowd to cause XXXX effect upon them.

These sorts of spells need not be truly exclusive to bards, but would not typically be on the list of those of those who do not ascribe to bardic principles or are closely associated with bards.

anyhow, just ideas for thought

[SmootRK]

I like the idea that most city-fied bards (those who are spellcasters anyhow) would be more inclined to do Illusion magic (or standard MU fare). Those associated with nature/agriculture, travel, forests, ranger-types, etc. like druid magic. Bards attached to a church organization (I call them Cantors) obviously like clerical pursuits. It all fits well to me.

The idea of Colleges, was just a idea to hearken back to some of the original material... at least in a way. I figure the GM will integrate in whatever way seems to work for them anyhow.

Personally, I don't usually use class-based organizations in my campaigns, other than the obvious ones (temples for instance). Any organizations would be inclined to have members of many types of classes - just like successful adventuring parties... simply sharing certain goals.

[Solomoriah]

I agree about avoiding class-based organizations. There is a school of magic in my Glain campaign, but it's not an organization in any larger sense.

[cheepicus]

For a bard ability, I'd like to see a percentage chance to gain (X) temporary followers, who join with the Bard for one adventure, and work for free with high morale. This is both through the personal charisma and reputation of the Vard, and the hope of the followers to figure into future legends.

Generally things that involve Charisma, Bards should be better at them than a mere high-Charisma Thief, in the way a Fighter is better at fighting than a high-Strength Thief.

So I would see Bards more as (popular) leaders and demagogues, rather than magical musicians envisioned in some games.

[Solomoriah]

I like your thinking, cheepicus.

[SmootRK]

So I would see Bards more as (popular) leaders and demagogues, rather than magical musicians envisioned in some games.

Agreed. Face-man types among rogues. Party Spokesman when dealing with the rabble or the aristocracy. But, not necessarily the leaders of the parties they might work with... perhaps, but not always.

[notajediyet]

Heya, I developed my own Bard and I want to share.

XP: As Cleric
HD: d4, +2/level after 9th
Spells:
Level 1234
01st ----
02nd 1---
03rd 1---
04th 2---
05th 21--
06th 21--
07th 32--
08th 32--
09th 321-
10th 321-
11th 332-
12th 432-
13th 4321
14th 4331
15th 4332
16th 4432
17th 5433
18th 5443
19th 5444
20th 5444

Bards are wandering storytellers, minstrels and entertainers. They are jacks-of-all-trades, dabbling in magic, combat, and larceny. They serve as fine smooth talkers and negotiators as well.
A Bard must have a 9 Dexterity and a 13 Charisma. They attack and save as Thieves, but can use any weapon. They prefer elegant weapons like swords, bows and daggers. They can wear any armor up to chain mail, but cannot use shields. Bards typically carry a portable musical instruments (like lutes, mandolins, recorders, or lyres) to use their magical powers. Only human’s and half-elves (see race supplement) can be bards.
A Bard can learn magic, at a slower rate than a dedicated spellcaster can. He can learn any spells from the Druid or Illusionist (see supplements) spell lists, but must locate scrolls of said spells or find a tutor to teach him them. Like a Magic-User, he records such spells in a spell-book, even if they are druidic spells. He does not begin knowing any spells (even read magic, which he must first learn), but despite this, a Bard is a quick learner and casts all his spells with a caster level equal to his bard level.
Bards have a bit of a larcenous streak, allowing them to Pick Pockets and Listen as well as a Thief of equal level. Typically, they use these abilities to entertain crowds with sleight of hand and legerdemain, but a few Bards put them to more traditional uses.
A Bard’s greatest powers come from his musical talents. A Bard carrying a musical instrument can inspire his allies to acts of heroism. The allies must hear the Bard sing and play for one full round (though they may engage in other actions, they must be able to hear him) gain a +1 to hit and damage and a +2 to morale. The Bard can maintain this effect for every round he spends playing (taking no other action than walking his movement rate) and for 1d4 rounds after he stops playing.
A Bard’s music can also negate song- or music-based attacks, such as a harpy's or mermaid's song (but not against spells with verbal elements).The effect is suppressed for as long as the Bard plays, taking no other action but walking his movement rate, and for 1d4 rounds after he stops.
A Bard’s music can influence a crowd, changing their attitudes or opinions. They must hear the Bard perform for one full turn and not already be hostile to the Bard (thus, this ability is generally useless in combat). They must make a saving throw vs. spell, those that fail have their initial attitude shifted one category better or worse (Bard’s choice) so he can use this ability win the trust of a crowd or incite them to violence.
Lastly, a Bard knows a little something about everything. He has a 5% chance per level of knowing some useful tidbit of fact, rumor or legend. He may even be able to determine the properties of magical items at GM discretion.

[Myrystyr]

So I would see Bards more as (popular) leaders and demagogues, rather than magical musicians envisioned in some games.

Yeah, the original version way back in Strategic Review was described as "a fighting man with some knowledge of magic", and not a "thief-illusionist" minstrel...

In my campaigns the most important ability of a bard is Lore; information is power and currency, and Intelligence matters. Also, it strikes me that an ability to Charm others would carry with it an understanding of how the power of suggestion works, and thus give them the ability to undo charms - allowing the subject of a charm to make a new saving throw.

[sparrowhawk]

I've always envisioned bards as a generic "entertainer/performer", meaning not limited to singing & playing instruments... they have acting, dancing, storytelling, puppetry, miming skills & what-not. A sort of jack-of-all when it comes to, well, entertaining.

- Charisma should be prime (a no-brainer) since in old-school tropes, Cha is always the dump-stat.
- a modified thief skills list, probably with acrobatics, perform, etc.
- ever considered folding the Thief-acrobat with Bards?
- no magic, but with erm, "spell-like" abilities related to the way they perform
- followers please, & gathering info skills, sort of streetwise.. or urban knowledge. Bards should work better in an urban setting
- Legend Lore!
- think WoT's Thom Merrilin (a gleeman, i.e. travelling performer)

[Solomoriah]

I'm thinking "The Mentalist" with a bit of singing ability added in...

[Myrystyr]

My take on the Bard - I also like the 2E version, though reckon it ought to be a Wizard subclass.

[artikid]

I like what notajediyet did.
I'd probably add to it a couple of thief skills and raise the exp required to raise in levels to that of a fighter.

Anyway I'll probably give it a shot and post something

[artikid]

Artikid's bard (maybe not too different from notajediyet's)

XP: As Cleric
HD: d6, +1/level after 9th
Fight as: Thieves
Save as: Thieves
Weapons: Any
armors: leather and chain mail, no shields.
Races. Humans, elves, half-elves, gnomes
Requirments: cha 9+ int 9+

Bards can use the Pick Pockets and Listen Thief skills as a Thief of equal level.
A bard has a 5% chance per level of knowing some useful fact, rumor or legend. He may even be able to determine the properties of magical items at GM discretion.

Bards receive a +1 to reaction rolls and retainer reaction rolls, this becomes +2 at 9th level.

All magical musical instruments used by bards have their range extended by 25%.

Once per day per level a bard can use its bardic music.
Bardic music can have a variety of effects depending on the bard's level, the bard selects one as soon as he starts employing his power.
All bardic music powers last as long as the bard plays up to a number of rounds equal to the bard's level and 1d4 rounds thereafter.
A silence spell negates bardic music.
If the caster level is somehow necessary for bardic music effects, use the bard's level.
Bardic music is magical in nature and can thus be dispelled and affected by anti-magic shells and similar magic.

1st level:
Negate song: negates any sound - or music-based attacks, such as a harpy's or mermaid's song (but not against spells with verbal elements).
Cause/Remove Fear: as spell.
Charm animal: as spell.
Refresh: as spell.

3rd level:
Bless: as bless spell.
Charm person: as spell.
Restore Health: as spell.

5th level:
Sleep: as spell.
Hold animal: as spell.

7th Level:
Hold person: as spell.
Suggestion: as spell.

9th level:
Confusion: as spell.
Pacifism: as spell.

11th level:
Charm Monster: as spell.
Feeblemind: as spell.


This obviously needs some fixing, comments?

[Copperblade]

Artikid's bard (maybe not too different from notajediyet's)

XP: As Cleric
HD: d6, +1/level after 9th
Fight as: Thieves
Save as: Thieves
Weapons: Any
armors: leather and chain mail, no shields.
Races. Humans, elves, half-elves, gnomes
Requirments: cha 9+ int 9+

Bards can use the Pick Pockets and Listen Thief skills as a Thief of equal level.
A bard has a 5% chance per level of knowing some useful fact, rumor or legend. He may even be able to determine the properties of magical items at GM discretion.

Bards receive a +1 to reaction rolls and retainer reaction rolls, this becomes +2 at 9th level.

All magical musical instruments used by bards have their range extended by 25%.

Once per day per level a bard can use its bardic music.
Bardic music can have a variety of effects depending on the bard's level, the bard selects one as soon as he starts employing his power.
All bardic music powers last as long as the bard plays up to a number of rounds equal to the bard's level and 1d4 rounds thereafter.
A silence spell negates bardic music.
If the caster level is somehow necessary for bardic music effects, use the bard's level.
Bardic music is magical in nature and can thus be dispelled and affected by anti-magic shells and similar magic.

1st level:
Negate song: negates any sound - or music-based attacks, such as a harpy's or mermaid's song (but not against spells with verbal elements).
Cause/Remove Fear: as spell.
Charm animal: as spell.
Refresh: as spell.

3rd level:
Bless: as bless spell.
Charm person: as spell.
Restore Health: as spell.

5th level:
Sleep: as spell.
Hold animal: as spell.

7th Level:
Hold person: as spell.
Suggestion: as spell.

9th level:
Confusion: as spell.
Pacifism: as spell.

11th level:
Charm Monster: as spell.
Feeblemind: as spell.


This obviously needs some fixing, comments?

Definitely think they should be renamed to something a little more fanciful, like "Goblin's Lullaby", etc. Also, I don't think they should operate "as spells" even if they have the same effects. I think they shouldn't be fire-and-forget, for example, but have effects that last while the playing is going on. Although you might think that is to obvious to actually write down, believe me if you don't write it, generations later will follow the rules to the letter only. Likewise, range should be within hearing range, etc.

[SmootRK]

Agree. I think effects should be 'active while playing/performing' and not fire off types. A few might have some lasting sorts of effects, but these should be limited to influence types... once you make someone well inclined to you, the effect is lasting until some new circumstances occur.

[artikid]

Definitely think they should be renamed to something a little more fanciful, like "Goblin's Lullaby", etc. Also, I don't think they should operate "as spells" even if they have the same effects.

If you wish... I really don't see the necessity of that

I think they shouldn't be fire-and-forget, for example, but have effects that last while the playing is going on. Although you might think that is to obvious to actually write down, believe me if you don't write it, generations later will follow the rules to the letter only. Likewise, range should be within hearing range, etc.

They are not fire and forget, have you read the following paragraph?

Once per day per level a bard can use its bardic music.
Bardic music can have a variety of effects depending on the bard's level, the bard selects one as soon as he starts employing his power.
All bardic music powers last as long as the bard plays up to a number of rounds equal to the bard's level and 1d4 rounds thereafter.

Maybe it's poorly worded because I was writing in a haste but: the effect lasts as long as the bard plays and lingers on for some time afterwards.

[Copperblade]

They are not fire and forget, have you read the following paragraph?

Once per day per level a bard can use its bardic music.
Bardic music can have a variety of effects depending on the bard's level, the bard selects one as soon as he starts employing his power.
All bardic music powers last as long as the bard plays up to a number of rounds equal to the bard's level and 1d4 rounds thereafter.

Maybe it's poorly worded because I was writing in a haste but: the effect lasts as long as the bard plays and lingers on for some time afterwards.

Sorry, that's my fault. I don't know why I didn't see that... I guess I was more focused on "as spell" in the list of spells.

[SmootRK]

Missed that too.
I still think the effects should be non-magical, able to be produced any number of times per day (as in whenever played), one effect possible at a time... and only loosely approach approximate magical effects. The bard only knows a limited number of musical types according to his level. Only a few abilities might seem stronger, like a non-magical charm, or a spell breaking tune.

For instance, the party encounters a necromancer with his undead host. To boost the effectiveness of the party cleric, the Bard plays a FUNERAL MARCH to boost the effectivness of the clerical turning. After a few rounds, noting that the Necromancer is a powerful mage in his own right, the Bard switches to a Rousing Elven Tune that grants save bonuses against magical effects. Later after the hard fought battle, the Bard plays a Soothing Meditative Piece that allows the party spell casters to re-memorize spells quicker. If time permits, he might try to refresh the rest of the party with a rest (healing) enhancing song.

The rest of the bard's abilities are more in line with the Thief style of abilities, as a jack of all trades. Fights decent, decent armor, decent at some thief skills, Legend Lore, etc.