[C&C] Deconstructing Classes: An Overview

[serleran]

I've decided to cross-post this, since I think some of you may find it useful. Granted, its not 100% accurate, as I've not been granted the privilege of looking into Davis' head, but, from the best of my reverse engineering, it seems to be about right. Anyway, enough of my rambling, and onto it:

Note, Akrasia and a few others might see this as being familiar.

Equal XP does not equate to equal power. This is the fundamental definition of level. If a Fighter has 10K XP, and a Wizard has 10K XP, the Fighter is 4th level, and the Wizard is not quite 4th. Each level within a class has an XP cost, based not on what other classes get, but what the class itself, gets... for that level. The classes were designed to be balanced to itself, so, if you're playing a Fighter, and you go from level 1 to level 2, you get +1 BtH, d10 HP, and that's it. That level doesn't provide you with much, so its cost is lower, or, about equal to the level before it. Wizards have a similar structure, but, each level, they gain new spells, so each of their levels are "more expensive." The sclaes are not equal, but they are large enough to balance out. Everything is a factor, technically, from the Fighter's d10, to weapons allowed, to weapons prohibited, and armor allowances.

Here, let me break it down in a manner which is not exact to Davis', but the best way I can explain it:


Fighter:

Gets -- +1 BtH / Level (equal to 500 XP)
Gets -- 1d10 / Level (equal to 750 XP)
Gets -- Weapon Specialization (equal to 250 XP)
Gets -- All Armor (equal to 250 XP)
Gets -- All Weapons (equal to 250 XP)

This means the first level costs ~ 2,000 XP
Second level doesn't change anything, and nothing is added, so previous is doubled.
Third is same, so previous is doubled.
When the Fighter gains something, say at 4th level when Combat Dominance kicks in, the progression shifts; it changes from a simple doubling to double + ~ 500.

Now, we get the Wizard:

Gets -- +1 BtH / 4 Levels (equal to 150 XP)
Gets -- 1d4 / Level (equal to 150 XP)
Gets -- Limited Weapons (equal to 100 XP)
Gets -- No Armor (equal to 0 XP)
Gets -- One automatic spell / Level (equal to 400 XP)
Gets -- Spellcasting (equal to 300 XP / Spell = 1,800 XP)


This means the first level costs ~ 2,600 XP
Second level, nothing is gained, so doubled.
Third is same, so doubled.


Now, to correct a mistake I initially made: classes are compared to each other's abilities, but only in the sense that a d12 HD might be "more costly" than, say, having "Hide." Each ability does not necessarily correspond to the same of another class, but they are all compared to each other, to get the fundamental "cost."

[cleaverthepit]

DOH

The Adventurer's Backpack: Compleat Class Creation

[serleran]

Let me know if you'd like help in writing it, then. You know where to reach me.

[The GM]

I have a class that I built that my wizard players said "No. If you build this, I will never play a striaght wizard again". I'm a pretty careful guy, so I'm pretty certain it's not overpowered... Now I can find out scientifically .

Thanks Serleran.

Don.

[Akrasia]

Would it be possible to publish an article in the Crusader that broke down the class abilities in this way?

IIRC, there were two different articles on how to do this with D&D (B/X/RC) character classes, one in Dragon (number 117?), and one in ODDities.

It would be a great thing to have, and I don't think it warrants an entire book, since it looks like it would take about 3-4 pages to cover.

[Maliki]

Thanks for the info, Its nice to see the reasons behind some of the rules and mechanics in a game system.

[gideon_thorne]

If I recall rightly, Davis plan's on putting his class creation methodology in the CKG.

The Adventurer's Backpack, so I understand, is more than just about creating classes.

Would it be possible to publish an article in the Crusader that broke down the class abilities in this way?

IIRC, there were two different articles on how to do this with D&D (B/X/RC) character classes, one in Dragon (number 117?), and one in ODDities.

It would be a great thing to have, and I don't think it warrants an entire book, since it looks like it would take about 3-4 pages to cover.

[Akrasia]

If I recall rightly, Davis plan's on putting his class creation methodology in the CKG.
...

Excellent! I can hardly wait until 2010!

[gideon_thorne]

Excellent! I can hardly wait until 2010!

I think the movie is already out.

[Mac Golden]

Everything is based off the baseline -- the Fighter. Classes are balanced by xp needed per level like OA&D, in contrast to 3E's method.

- Mac Golden

[Maliki]

Everything is based off the baseline -- the Fighter. Classes are balanced by xp needed per level like OA&D, in contrast to 3E's method.

- Mac Golden

This is one thing that took my players a while to get used to, most came from 3E and the different XP charts for each class was all new to them. Of course I loved it, I hated the 1 chart system in 3E, no matter how they tried or what they did every class could not be equal to every other class at every level.

[rabindranath72]

Everything is based off the baseline -- the Fighter. Classes are balanced by xp needed per level like OA&D, in contrast to 3E's method.

- Mac Golden

This is one thing that took my players a while to get used to, most came from 3E and the different XP charts for each class was all new to them. Of course I loved it, I hated the 1 chart system in 3E, no matter how they tried or what they did every class could not be equal to every other class at every level.

I fully agree. It all amounts to utter ignorance of basic statistics.
All the process of class creation being at best "fuzzy", in the end the 3e system sounds something like: measure with a laser, mark with a chalk, cut with an axe.

[The GM]

I fully agree. It all amounts to utter ignorance of basic statistics.
All the process of class creation being at best "fuzzy", in the end the 3e system sounds something like: measure with a laser, mark with a chalk, cut with an axe.

Yeah, I've had this discussion (though I'm not this funny ) with some of the more rabid TETSNBN players in my campaigns, there's also the "if you add that power, the class won't be balanced!" mentality that a single XP chart induces.

Of course, when I point out why it is that the single XP chart is part of the basis for my claim that 3E and RM are functionally equivalent... Then the conversation ends.

I'm glad we have C&C to find middle ground on our little disagreements about systems.

Don.