Asking about Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea

[Turanil]

Looking at a module advertised in the New Products thread, I saw that is was done for "Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea". Unless I am mistaken and it's just the name of the publishers, it sounds like another simulacrum of D&D is on the work.

Could we know more about it ??

[Elbeghast]

Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea is a game from Jeffrey P. Talanian, who notably worked with E. Gary Gygax on some products of the Castle Zagyg line and recently published the Charnel Crypt of the Sightless Serpent, a vintage D&D compatible adventure for levels 4-7 (see my review of the product here on this board). There is still no precise information as to when, exactly, the game would be released, but I don't think we're looking at too long a time frame (a year or so, maybe less).

It seems to be fairly close to AD&D, First edition, though I wouldn't call it a simulacrum. Not exactly. It will incorporate quite a few tweaks to the original rules, from what I understand, most notably as it comes to the tone of the game, which will be much more close to a pulpy, dark fantasy game that takes inspiration from the works of HP Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith and Robert E. Howard than anything else. It has an implied setting, Hyperborea, which is a direct descendant of works from these authors, albeit it is an original take on the concept of Hyperborea, rather than a copy of prior works.

How detailed the setting will be in the finished product, and how the rules emulate these flavors exactly, is still up for grabs at this point (by which I mean: it's been worked out, there's an actual game that exists, but the public doesn't know its contents yet).

[Turanil]

Thanks for the info.

It would be great if the authors would be willing to come here and tell about it and give us some previews or sneak peaks...

[aethelwulf22]

They have a website (http://www.swordsmen-and-sorcerers.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), but not much happening on it yet, and a facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pag ... 071?ref=ts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) that is a bit more lively.

[Agricola]

That module does look cool, and I may end up ordering it. I too wish the people behind this simulacrum would pop in and give us the lowdown. Seems like something I would be interested in.

[Greywolf]

The author does pop into to Dragonsfoot regularly, I think. But I am sure that he is busy trying to get AS&SH ready.

Of course, he is a Ghul, you know.

I did play this first module DMed by the author of AS&SH. We used the rules. It was an awesome game and I really enjoyed the rules. Any OD&D, BD&D, or 1ed player will not be thrown off but can pick it up pretty easily.

If I remember correctly, the thieving skills rolls used d12s instead of d100. The ability bonuses were similar to BD&D (13-15 +1, 16-17 +2, 18 +3). There was weapon mastery (+1 to hit/+1 to damage). The alignment seemed to be less than the 9 alignments.

The paladin Turns Undead 4 levels lower than the cleric. My pregen paladin, whom I named Rochefort, had Law as his alignment.

Obviously any of the things that I wrote could be incorrect because some of it was from memory. And others could be changed since the rules were not yet finalized.

I really enjoyed the game: Jeff is a fun DM. I also enjoyed the module. I did buy it as the last thing that I did before leaving GaryCon so that I could read through the parts we did not encounter and am looking forward to DMing the module myself someday.

[Elbeghast]

I brought this thread to Jeffrey's attention. He hasn't read the message yet. Patience.

[Turanil]

I don't know what this game will look like, but I would find it great if someone turned Conan D20 (which is OGC) into AD&D. We'll see...

[Ghul]

Thank you for the interest, fellows. A goodly amount of the following is cut and pasted from a recent thread at another forum.

AS&SH is not a clone or simulacrum, per se, though it shares much of the terminology and many of the mechanics. The system makes use of the OGL, but it is not intended to cut as close to an earlier system as is legally possible. Simply put, the AS&SH rules are built from the foundation laid by Gygax and Arneson; i.e. the rules are respectful of tradition, yet also contain some unique twists. Here follows some of the game's basic features:

• Attributes: The standard six, ranging from scores of 3-18, but the modifiers are on a flatter curve than most earlier systems, save 0E, perhaps.
• Races: No demi-humans, or Tolkien-esque high fantasy types (if you can excuse the fantasy lit nomenclature). It is a sword-and-sorcery world of humans; these might be of "common" or a specific racial derivative, such as Atlanteans, Kelts, Picts, and many more.
• Classes: There are the usual 4 principal classes -- fighter, magician, cleric, thief. There are 16 subclasses, some of which are traditional fantasy RPG subclasses, others of which are unique. Each class has its own abilities, some of which make use different dice for ability task resolution. The thief, for example makes use a d12 to resolve various tasks. Each spell casting class (and subclass) has its own distinct spell list. Each class and subclass has its own XP progression chart (non-universal). AS&SH makes use of a 12-level system; the intent is to have a lower power curve for PCs, where the characters can be heroic, but scarcely super-heroic.
• Task Resolution: There is no universal task resolution. There is no skill system, per se, but characters might have a secondary skill (mundane profession) or two. Dice conventions are presented for non-standard task resolution (or those tasks not specifically covered by the rules.)
• Combat: Combat makes use of a 10-second round that is handled in two discreet phases of action, the order of events determined by the actions of the characters; e.g. movement can bump a phase 1 action to a phase 2 action. AC follows the traditional descending scale, ranging from 9 (worst) to -9 (best). Fighting Ability is measured against AC when making attacks (naturally, fighters and fighter subclasses enjoy the fastest rate of advancement.
• Spells: A massive spell list divided into 5 major categories: Magician, Cleric; Druid, Illusionst, Necromancer. Spells are presented in 6 levels of power. Some subclasses make use of specific lists. For example, a high level ranger can access magician and druid spells, while the skald (bard) accesses druid and illusionist lists.
• Monsters: Monsters include a mix of traditional types with a liberal dose of setting specific beasts, such as abominable snow-men, ape-men, crab-men, deep dwellers, elder things, mi-go, and snake-men.
• Items: Also a traditional assortment that includes setting specific additions, including a smattering of sci-fi items, such as ray guns.
• Setting: The setting, Hyperborea, is woven throughout the system, but subtly so. For instance, a subclass "flavor" description might mention some Hyperborean element, but never overdone. Of course the setting has its own calendar, geography, religions, cultures, flora, fauna, etc, and these are largely presented in the chapter specifically devoted to such. Hyperborea does not emulate the setting of any one author's fiction; it is inspired by the fantastic works of HP Lovecraft, RE Howard, CA Smith, and several other authors, such as ER Burroughs, J Vance, A Merritt, and more.

Hope that helps . . .

[aethelwulf22]

Can't wait! I've been patiently waiting for the game to come out before I pick up Charnel Crypt to save on shipping to the UK...is there an ETA on publication?

[Turanil]

This sounds really great... and might be a direct competitor to ROAR and World of Zulthoom... I will probably buy it though.

[Ghul]

Can't wait! I've been patiently waiting for the game to come out before I pick up Charnel Crypt to save on shipping to the UK...is there an ETA on publication?

I wish I could provide you with a specific date, but an ETA is the best I can do, I'm afraid. For an ETA, I was hopeful for a summer release, but the work remains in final development, and when complete it will go first to our playtesters for final review, then our editor, then layout, and then the printer. I have yet to send a final copy of the map to our cartographer, so that remains unfinished as well. So, for an ETA, I'm hopeful for late summer, but it might be fall.

The truth is, this is a part time effort for all involved. Each member of my small team of fellows has work and family, and we contribute to the project as time permits. That pretty much explains why it's taken a year and a half to reach final development (or, the last chapters of the work). It is for this same reason that I ill not be taking pre-orders. Often there is something I think can be done in a week, but a week can easily turn into a month, and so on.

So work progresses nicely; I continue to write and take in feedback, and Ian continues to produce art that defines the tone and mood of this RPG and its setting.

Thank-you for your interest.

--Jeff T.

[Ghul]

This sounds really great... and might be a direct competitor to ROAR and World of Zulthoom... I will probably buy it though.

I'm not familiar with either of those. Can you provide a link?

Cheers,
Jeff T.

EDIT: Oops, I see the link in your sig. I'll check it out now.

[aethelwulf22]

Okay, Jeff. Thanks for the ETA. And sorry for pestering...I'm glad you're taking the time to get it right rather than rushing it out.

[Ghul]

Okay, Jeff. Thanks for the ETA. And sorry for pestering...I'm glad you're taking the time to get it right rather than rushing it out.

My pleasure. I'm happy to know some of my gaming fellows here at DF are interested in the project.

[Geoffrey]

There are the usual 4 principal classes -- fighter, magician, cleric, thief. There are 16 subclasses, some of which are traditional fantasy RPG subclasses, others of which are unique.

Would you list those 16 sub-classes?

[Ghul]

There are the usual 4 principal classes -- fighter, magician, cleric, thief. There are 16 subclasses, some of which are traditional fantasy RPG subclasses, others of which are unique.

Would you list those 16 sub-classes?

Sure. They are as follows:

• Fighter Subclasses
• barbarian
• berserker
• cataphract
• paladin
• ranger
• spell-sword*
  
  * The name of this class may not stick. The class is a fighter that has some magician spells, but is not a "true" multi-class type. I am considering names such as war witch or war wizard. Spell-sword, as playtester Joe notes, sounds a bit too Munchkin.
  
  Magician Subclasses
• illusionist
• necromancer
  
  * I've experimented with a third magician subclass. Its inclusion remains undecided.
  
  Cleric Subclasses
• druid
• monk
• priest
• shaman
  
  Thief Subclasses
• assassin
• bard (skald)
• scout
• shadowblade

[Odhanan]

Careful with the porte-manteaux, Ghul!

Ironically, I personally think spell-sword kind of works, since it's not exactly a neologism, but shadowblade reminds me of some recent, unfortunate inventions such as "shadowdark". This kind of rubs me the wrong way, if you see what I mean. Just personal preferences, of course, but since we're discussing amongst gentlemen...

What's the difference between a shadowblade and an assassin?

[(A Guy Named) Kim]

Good luck with this, Jeff. Are you gonna be hitting any cons this year? It'd be great to hook up again and game some like we did at GC a few years back. Good to "see" you again, my Yankee friend.

[Ghul]

Careful with the porte-manteaux, Ghul!

I know. And I do agree! It is a concern.

Ironically, I personally think spell-sword kind of works, since it's not exactly a neologism,

I'd never heard of that MZ Bradley book, and I can't say I've ever read more than a few chapters of one of her books, so I must claim complete ignorance. Still, the subclass name "spell-sword" does not feel right to me. Without getting into all the details, picture a class of fighter that can cast a limited amount (no higher than level 3) spells, whilst clad in up to medium weight (mail) armor. Except for the armor restriction, and one less weapon mastery (fighters and fighter subclasses gain weapon masteries: +1/+1), the class is essentially a fighter. It does, however, come at a price: a significantly more costly XP progression rate. For this reason I have considered the replacement names of war wizard or war witch. I'd be curious to know whether anyone else feels spell-sword is just fine. "Warlock" was another consideration, but the name feels like it would infer a magician's subclass, not a fighter's.

but shadowblade reminds me of some recent, unfortunate inventions such as "shadowdark". This kind of rubs me the wrong way, if you see what I mean. Just personal preferences, of course, but since we're discussing amongst gentlemen...

What's the difference between a shadowblade and an assassin?

Well, you've struck right at the heart of the matter, Benoist, because "shadowblade" follows the same concept as "spell-sword"; i.e. a subclass that is a sort of class merger. In this case, a thief that can cast a minimal amount of magician spells, though with a variation that allows it to cast illusionist spells. For this I have consider legerdemain, but etymologically the term is rather "new". Not that this is necessarily a bad thing.

Both of these subclasses may not be unique in light of multi-classing, but they are somewhat different in that they are presented as specific subclasses. The original concept for each of these was presented by a creative contributor who likes to "think outside the box" as it were.

Cheers,
Jeff T.

[Ghul]

Good luck with this, Jeff. Are you gonna be hitting any cons this year? It'd be great to hook up again and game some like we did at GC a few years back. Good to "see" you again, my Yankee friend.

Thanks Kim! Yeah, we had a lot of fun at Gen Con. Ever since Gary died, I haven't seen much reason to go. I'm engaged in my own small press ventures, and I will be doing different cons this year, such as Fal-Con (Connecticut), Gary Con (Wisconsin), and maybe the North Texas Con next year. Smaller cons in New England I will likely attend, too. You need to hit Gary Con, Kim.

And forget the history of the term "Yankee". I live in the here and now, and from where I'm at, Yankee means "enemy" because I am a Red Sock!

Cheers,
Jeff T.

[Odhanan]

I'd never heard of that MZ Bradley book, and I can't say I've ever read more than a few chapters of one of her books, so I must claim complete ignorance. Still, the subclass name "spell-sword" does not feel right to me. Without getting into all the details, picture a class of fighter that can cast a limited amount (no higher than level 3) spells, whilst clad in up to medium weight (mail) armor. Except for the armor restriction, and one less weapon mastery (fighters and fighter subclasses gain weapon masteries: +1/+1), the class is essentially a fighter. It does, however, come at a price: a significantly more costly XP progression rate. For this reason I have considered the replacement names of war wizard or war witch. I'd be curious to know whether anyone else feels spell-sword is just fine. "Warlock" was another consideration, but the name feels like it would infer a magician's subclass, not a fighter's.

Yes. Plus "Warlock" literally means an "oath breaker" (Old English waer log), a betrayer of some (societal/religious) covenant. Which implies the use of magic in some unacceptable, taboo way.

I mostly like the Spellsword because it reminds me of Sellswords, and makes me think of a sort of mercenary, a fighting man who basically studies arcane secrets to get the upper hand on his enemies. It fits in that regard. The problem is that for others, it might mean something more literal, spell + sword, using spells with your sword or something similar. Maybe using swords as staves?

Well, you've struck right at the heart of the matter, Benoist, because "shadowblade" follows the same concept as "spell-sword"; i.e. a subclass that is a sort of class merger. In this case, a thief that can cast a minimal amount of magician spells, though with a variation that allows it to cast illusionist spells. For this I have consider legerdemain, but etymologically the term is rather "new". Not that this is necessarily a bad thing.

Something of a spellcasting prestidigitator, then. Legerdemain does fit, in the sense that it literally means an "light of hand". It came from the French "léger de main" (light-of-hand) and made it into Middle English as Legerdemayn.

How about using the Middle English spelling? Legerdemayn. Sounds kind of lejendary to me.

Note that Legerdemain/Legerdemayn fits better with Cataphract, IMO.

Then, maybe the spellsword would indeed need another name, for consistency. Don't know. Thinking as I type, here.

Both of these subclasses may not be unique in light of multi-classing, but they are somewhat different in that they are presented as specific subclasses. The original concept for each of these was presented by a creative contributor who likes to "think outside the box" as it were.

Cheers,
Jeff T.

I like these concepts. They do emulate concepts that come up time and time again in Swords & Sorcery, that's for sure.

[DMPrata]

FWIW, Jeff, I'm fine with both spell-sword and shadowblade. I have no trouble conceptualizing the classes from those titles.

[Greywolf]

I like it, Odhanan. You're a regular OED.

[Odhanan]

I like it, Odhanan. You're a regular OED.

Don't know about the dictionary, but if you mean a regular Old Editions Dude, then yes, Sir. Yes I am!

[bargle]

Instead of inventing a word wholecloth why not find a character from literature or folklore that has the abilities of the spell sword and shadowblade? A "holy sword" sounds meta while "paladin" doesn't. There is nothing evocative about your place holding names. Joseph Cambel would have a stern word with you if you left them as is. The word "paladin" conveys much more than just a holy man with a sword. So far "spellsword" does nothing to add depth to man who casts spells and holds a sword. The word, Magician can conjur images of long white beards and staves, to black gotees and wicked daggers, from kindly old men, to fanatical students of the occult.

My guess is Moorcock's elric is a spellsword. Or the highlander movies, or Jedi. Leiber's grey mouser is your shadowblade.

Pick two names that invoke their character. Their names shouldn't tell me what they do, but who they are. I don't know what those names are though...

Also, how do clerics fit into hyperborea? How are they functionally different from the spellsword (wears armor, wields a melée weapon well, casts spells...). Elric is a good example of a spellsword and a cleric of a demonic god now that I think about it...

None of your other class names are two word mishmashes. Is a spellsword who uses a hammer a spellhammer? A shadowcrossbower? A war wizard who only fights small battles called a skirmish wizard?

your game sounds great by the way!

[bargle]

A man who can fight and cast spells is quite the Savant. and a con arting thief with magical tricks is quite the prestige/prestidigitator

the one thing that still sticks in my craw is how elric, clerics, Jedi, all kind of do the same thing. Cast spells and fight well. Your cleric sub list is short compared to all the fighter subclasses...As is your magician to your thief...

[aethelwulf22]

Gotta agree that I'm not keen on Spellsword or Shadowblade...they don't really fit in with the feel/sound of the other subclasses which are classic class names with a historical basis. Maybe this is also because they have evolved from 3e prestige class names and are still currently in fashion but in another decade...? Whereas Ranger, Paladin, etc. are timeless. Having said all that I can't for the life of me think of any single word class names for either. Oldhanan's Legerdemayn is the best so far for Shadowblade, imho...

[Agricola]

Gave in yesterday and ordered the Sightless Serpent. The subclass' posting above sounds really cool, this game system sounds really cool in fact. Although the only game I'm in is 3.5(only game in town), my favorite is BECM D&D and my favorite class in that is the fighter expansion: Avenger. So I'm getting pretty excited about this and want the designers to know they have a fan already! Also, I appreciate you coming here to post, and leaking out a few juicy tidbits.
Looking forward to the module!

[Omote]

Interested since GenCon 2009 and looking forward to the finished product.

~O