BECM Clone: Gauging interest

[Urieal]

Would anyone be interested in a BECM clone?

I know Dark Dungeons exists, but that's a Rules Cyclopedia clone, which isn't the same as Mentzer's BECM. I know the rules are close...but there's a good bit that Allston changed when compiling the RC, and there's certainly a "mood" that is lost. The style and tone of Frank's work are fantastic and I love that version of Classic. I also think that Frank doesn't get the credits due him in the OSR. That sounds odd now that I type it out. I think a better statement might be "I would really like to dedicate something to Frank because of his contributions to the hobby."

My thoughts are to have 2 books, a Players Manual and a Game Master's Rulebook, done similar to each of the B, C, and M sets (Expert was a single volume).

I've got about 1/4 of the Players Manual typed up, and I'm quite happy with it thus far...but I don't know if there's much interest outside of myself. It would include a "Your First Adventure" type section that would be included as an Appendix. The Game Master's Rulebook would also include a "Your First Game".

I'd love to hear others' opinions about a BECM clone. Thanks.

[Scott Anderson]

Who cares whether anyone else wants it? You were one of the biggest inspirations for me to go ahead and write a game. Go do it and then you can have it. That's a really good feeling.

As far as the tone of the RC, that's true. It has no soul at all. Same with most of the 2e-era stuff: no soul.

[Leonaru]

Just do it.

[Maliki]

Just do it.

+1

[bargle]

Why would it be considered a tribute to Mentzer to take his book and remove all of his words and replace them with your own?

[Scott Anderson]

Why would it be considered a tribute to Mentzer to take his book and remove all of his words and replace them with your own?

If it was just swiping mechanics and replacing the prose, it would be flattering. But I think he's going to put in his own rules. Writing a new game in the style of someone else's game sure sounds like a tribute.

[DiscoJer]

Why would it be considered a tribute to Mentzer to take his book and remove all of his words and replace them with your own?

That's what made Robert Howard famous, people writing Conan pastiches (either in literary or comic form).

[chap126]

If you have time to make something new, put new campaign settings and adventures as higher priority than rule clones.

[rabindranath72]

BECM(I) is my favoured version of Classic, so I'd say, go for it! And thanks for all the work!

[DiscoJer]

But yeah, I'd say go for it.

There's a surplus of B/X clones, but everything else is under supported. (I never realized how popular B/X was)

[Urieal]

Why would it be considered a tribute to Mentzer to take his book and remove all of his words and replace them with your own?

A good question, one I'm not sure how to answer. I guess my argument would be that anything which inspires you can be considered a tribute. I'm inspired to share what doesn't exist in other retro-clones, namely, the rules that Frank created and customized for extending B/X into 36 levels. That seems like a decent way to pay homage, but perhaps that's just my over-inflated opinion.

If it was just swiping mechanics and replacing the prose, it would be flattering. But I think he's going to put in his own rules. Writing a new game in the style of someone else's game sure sounds like a tribute.

My opinion is that a clone should be a clone, not my house rules. That being said, I will need to make it sufficiently different so that it is not a direct copy. There are a number of things that I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable adding, such as demi-human clan relics. Those are really neat ideas that I do like, but I feel as though adding those would be inappropriate somehow (not sure where that comes from, but I still feel that way).

If you have time to make something new, put new campaign settings and adventures as higher priority than rule clones.

This is certainly a viable point. I'd like to do that, eventually...I think...however, one must base such efforts on a set of rules. Can I publish adventures for Classic D&D? Labyrinth Lord isn't the same. Nor is BFRPG. Nor is Dark Dungeons (thought, it is fairly close). It might be nice to say, on the cover of your work, "An adventure world designed for BEC&M".

[chap126]

This is certainly a viable point. I'd like to do that, eventually...I think...however, one must base such efforts on a set of rules. Can I publish adventures for Classic D&D? Labyrinth Lord isn't the same. Nor is BFRPG. Nor is Dark Dungeons (thought, it is fairly close). It might be nice to say, on the cover of your work, "An adventure world designed for BEC&M".

You could definietly publish adventures for Classic D&D, you just have to say they are for LL or DD or whatever, but when you write it you can be written (in your mind) specifically for Classic D&D, and when people use it they can play it with Classic D&D. That was the original intent of OSRIC and I'm guessing of the other clones that are out there. They were designed as legal grounds that people could base new classic D&D adventures on, without worrying about worrying about breaking IP. I believe OSRIC was specifically NOT meant to be the rules you actually ran OSRIC based adventures on. Originally, OSRIC based adventures were supposed to be for AD&D 1e. But high demand forced the authors hand, or so the rumours go, and they eventually released a fully playable ruleset, that strangely turned out very excellently. You can however, still publish and use new "OSRIC" adventures exclusively with Gygax AD&D, without ever looking at OSRIC.

Write the new rules if you have the energy! Don't get me wrong, I absolutely don't want to discourage input into old skool DnD, a new clone certainly couldn't hurt, I just want to help with your guage, as per the thread topic. If you ask me, I'd much rather see a BECM campaign setting than a BECM clone, considering I already own BECM, but don't own any new campaign settings I've never played before.

[seandon4]

This is certainly a viable point. I'd like to do that, eventually...I think...however, one must base such efforts on a set of rules. Can I publish adventures for Classic D&D? Labyrinth Lord isn't the same. Nor is BFRPG. Nor is Dark Dungeons (thought, it is fairly close). It might be nice to say, on the cover of your work, "An adventure world designed for BEC&M".

I personally think of it all as "classic D&D" or OSR and assume that everyone has their own style/flavor/house rules, so if one person prefers S&W and another prefers LL then either one can work with the same adventure. One approach could be to do something like the AEC (advanced edition companion) or the OEC (original edition) for LL, but make a BECM edition companion; or in the case of BFRPG could start with the core rules and then create a a BECM supplement with options to make it more like Mentzer style. Just an idea and my 2 cents.

[Scott Anderson]

Is it a clone? Or an homage? Because if it's a clone, then changing the prose and leaving the rules mostly as-is seems more appropriate.

But I feel like it's splitting hairs. You can clone + add your own content - leave out stuff that didn't work as well and if you have 90% of the same system, it's still a clone.

[Urieal]

Is it a clone? Or an homage? Because if it's a clone, then changing the prose and leaving the rules mostly as-is seems more appropriate.

But I feel like it's splitting hairs. You can clone + add your own content - leave out stuff that didn't work as well and if you have 90% of the same system, it's still a clone.

Well, I am hoping to add Frank's rewrite of the Thief class into it...when/if he provides it

There are other changes I am considering, perhaps the undead turning table so that it scales a slight bit better with level, other minor things. Enough to call it a clone, but also enough to differentiate it as a wholly different work (which is necessary, I believe).

[Koren n'Rhys]

Go for it! I love reading rulesets, be they clones, houserule books or whatever, and think it's fun to see what people change or riff off of. If you think LL or DD aren't close enough, then have at it, Jeff. Personally, I'm more in favor of the lower power curve of B/X, but I pull extra bits and pieces from BECMI/RC/LL/AEC all the time. I'd love to add your BECM clone to the list.

[Scott Anderson]

Yeah, just go start writing and figure out what it is later. I'm having the time of my literary life writing my game, and I don't think I'll ever do anything with it. The writing is the thing.

[Omote]

Oh yes. I would be interested in such a product.

~O

[Justisaur]

You know what I'd really like to see? A clone of each of the actual products. A clone of Basic complete with intro solo adventure!, separate clones of Expert, Companion and Master.

[serleran]

I'd like to see clones of the clones, cloning each other.

[Urieal]

You know what I'd really like to see? A clone of each of the actual products. A clone of Basic complete with intro solo adventure!, separate clones of Expert, Companion and Master.

I actually gave serious consideration to it.

In the end, though, one of the gripes my players have about BECM is that the rules are not in a single volume and they, being newer to Classic than other versions, have a harder time discovering where information regarding a specific weapon or spell or such can be found.

I am not sure if I can condense the entirety the players manual into an 88 page saddle stitch book, but I hope to. I know I couldn't do it with a game masters rulebook, unless I created a third book for monsters.

[Scott Anderson]

There's a reason these things come out in threes.

[Jonathandavid]

You know what I'd really like to see? A clone of each of the actual products. A clone of Basic complete with intro solo adventure!, separate clones of Expert, Companion and Master.

I actually gave serious consideration to it.

In the end, though, one of the gripes my players have about BECM is that the rules are not in a single volume and they, being newer to Classic than other versions, have a harder time discovering where information regarding a specific weapon or spell or such can be found.

I liked the concept of an RPG system that you build step by step. The characters reach higher levels and as they become more experienced, the challenges become more complex. I took the concept seriously as a child and didn't want to buy the companion set until I could see the party reach the associated levels soon.

It certainly has disadvantages, but it's an advantage that the rules come in chunks, making it easier to choose how you wish to play the game. The first two sets are, as I understand, a kind of B/X clone themselves, and there are three steps of complexity you can add on top of that - if you wish. Great idea really, and probably the only RPG to do that in such a clear, stepwise manner.

[DiscoJer]

You know what I'd really like to see? A clone of each of the actual products. A clone of Basic complete with intro solo adventure!, separate clones of Expert, Companion and Master.

That actually exists, sort of.

Adventures in the East Mark is a Spanish retro clone that had a Kickstarter to translate it into English.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/da ... he-red-box

It's going to be released as a series of boxed sets. I'm not sure they exactly mirror the original ones, but the first two do...

[Urieal]

You know what I'd really like to see? A clone of each of the actual products. A clone of Basic complete with intro solo adventure!, separate clones of Expert, Companion and Master.

The more I think of doing this, the more I am inclined to the idea. I may actually compile the complete work first, then break it out into individual B, E, C, and M booklets.

[Keps]

You know what I'd really like to see? A clone of each of the actual products. A clone of Basic complete with intro solo adventure!, separate clones of Expert, Companion and Master.

The more I think of doing this, the more I am inclined to the idea. I may actually compile the complete work first, then break it out into individual B, E, C, and M booklets.

Don't clone it, you've been improving it on these pages now for years. One-up it. Put your Warden Classes in it. If Frank "was paid" to do a re-edit, it wouldn't come out the same....at all.

[Scott Anderson]

Yeah, Jeff, write a game. Use as much D as you want and roll out your stuff.

[Snarglepuddin]

I've always treated the RC as a clone for BECM. I understand the convenience of having all the rules in one book and its value as a reference, but it has none of the charm of the box sets. It's the 2E of Basic D&D to me. Honestly, a nice organized clone of BECM might see me sell off the RC. I never would've thought the RC I bought to protect my booklets would become so valuable.

[Scott Anderson]

That's true. An RC with some soul would be very popular. If you commissioned art, you could sell it like some of these guys do.

[Urieal]

I've always treated the RC as a clone for BECM. I understand the convenience of having all the rules in one book and its value as a reference, but it has none of the charm of the box sets. It's the 2E of Basic D&D to me. Honestly, a nice organized clone of BECM might see me sell off the RC. I never would've thought the RC I bought to protect my booklets would become so valuable.

I've always done the same, until I found out that there are several minor discrepancies. Nothing really game breaking, mind you, but they are there.

And never fear, if I do decide to complete a clone, then a full book is certainly part of the effort. I was simply entertaining the idea of individual books as well.

That's true. An RC with some soul would be very popular. If you commissioned art, you could sell it like some of these guys do.

I'd love to commission art, not sure I have the $$$ for that sort of effort (no, I will NOT do a kickstarter or indiegogo). And to be honest, I have no desire to sell it. I'd rather give away a full art PDF and allow people to print their own using home printers or any POD service they desire. Of course, there may be some legalese I would need to work through to effectuate such.