[C&C] Is True20 mustling in on Castles & Crusades' turf?

scadgrad · Post by **scadgrad** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:46 pm

I haven't taken a gander at it yet, and this is mere speculation on my part I assure you, but one has to wonder if the perceived success of C&C in any way influenced GR's decision to move forward w/ their own rules lite game. I haven't seen it yet, but I think CP is a top notch designer and their product has been superb IME.

Any thoughts on the matter? Anyone had a look at it yet?

rabindranath72 · Post by **rabindranath72** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:58 pm

I don't think it could be a competitor for C&C because True20 defines a system unto itself (so, porting old stuff cannot be done "on the fly"). For example, there are no hitpoints, no clear-cut classes. It is more a "toolbox" to custom-create campaign settings with an (almost) rules-lite system. I bought Blue Rose mostly for the game engine, and I must admit that it is a step forward with respect to 3e; furthermore, the campaign setting in itself is interesting. I was planning to use it for a Dragonlance SAGA-like game.
Anyway, the feeling is really quite different from D&D. This I would definitely call d20 Fantasy.
Castles & Crusades is another thing.

Cheers,
Antonio

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:06 pm

CP is definitely a top-notch writer/designer, lots of good work all around. For that alone, I may look more into True20. As stated though, it feels like it is it's own system that won't be compitable with much (without conversion that is).

C&C is firmly set as it's own game, with roots of classical play with modern adaptions. I don't think you'll be able to say the same thing about True20.

.............................................Omote
FPQ

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:35 pm

I own both games -- and I like both games a lot.

But as others have said, they are sufficiently different that I doubt that C&C will be displaced by True 20.

C&C is firmly rooted in its "OOP D&D" origins -- hit points, 'Vancian' magic, clear class archetypes, "kitchen-sink" approach to fantasy elements, and so forth. Also, its compatibility with pre-3e material is perhaps its greatest strength.

True 20, in contrast, is an entirely different kind of game (it has its origins in the superb 'Mutants and Masterminds' game, and the later 'Blue Rose' game). It is relatively rules light, and extremely flexible.

However, unlike C&C, True 20 breaks with many core "D&D-isms" -- e.g. True 20 has no hit points; three very broad, flexible classes (warrior, expert, and adept); completely different magic system; very different combat system; some new, interesting mechanisms (e.g. "conviction", which is a great device IMO); and rules for running it in 'modern' settings.

I think C&C does "D&D" better than any existing version of D&D. But I think True 20 would be better for other kinds of settings (e.g. Middle-earth, where the True 20 magic system, conviction, and combat system seem more appropriate) and genres (e.g. a Victorian fantasy campaign).

Needless to say, I am delighted that both systems are available!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:19 pm

If we are talking Blue Rose, Id say the two systems could be used with each other rather seamlessly. Both C&C and BR are rules lite systems, but like Lejendary Adventure, have taken off in different directions.

However, the basics are neglegable to convert.

I've been looking at it myself. I bought the Blue Rose book.

Mainly because an artist of my aquaintance did the art and she does beautiful watercolours.

Jerome Steelsides · Post by **Jerome Steelsides** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:32 pm

No, no overlap as I see it. True 20/Blue Rose is significantly different from C&C. I *love* the True 20 feat/skill magic system (and the similar system used for psionics in GR's Psychic Handbook). I'm thiking of adapting that for C&C, actually.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:34 am

I too think that C&C and True 20 are too much different to compete for the same audience. Personally, I prefer C&C.

Melan · Post by **Melan** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:02 pm

Yeah - C&C is a "D&D done right" game, and will be measured by that yardstick. True20 can't make such claims - it is a different thing altogether.

Gentlegamer · Post by **Gentlegamer** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:27 pm

I would gladly buy a True d20 basic rulebook, but I don't want any of the Blue Rose setting with it . . .

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:28 am

From reading the posts on the various rpg boards over the last couple of years it does seem there is a shift in thinking amongst the gaming community concerning what they want from future rpgs. The illusion has been dispelled that the d20 ultra detailed number crunching method would lead to a better gaming experience. A pining for more narrative simpler play and a looking back to the old days seems to be the new way forward.

The populatity of none d20 systems is again growing with WFRP selling second only to WoTs D&D. CoC and GURPS have also seen a slight revival in their market share. Compare this to the decrease in sales of d20 material over the last year (although still high). Over production and over stock is leading many online stores to slash prices. An old school renaissance could be on the horizon. C&C is ahead of the game for the moment but this won't remain the case for long. Already Green Ronin are toying with the idea of going rules lite and have put True20 out to RPG publishers for settings an ideas.

The delay in release of M&T (and CZ) and the poor layout issues of C&Cs first print run have certainly not helped in stamping C&C firmly at the vanguard of this new wave in gaming. However as C&C is the only runner (albeit a slow runner) they can afford to make one or two mistakes. They also have a hard core fanbase that has done loads of free promotion on the various boards.

Hopefully C&C will do well in the future dispite increased competition. I certainly was taken by their ideas and purchased C&C and Assault on blacktooth. However, due to the ongoing delays I have now gone over to WFRP due to more reliable publishing dates. (I also have the TRUE20 - C&C has better ideas with their SEIGE mechanic which are better in my opinion).

Barrataria · Post by **Barrataria** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:41 am

Guest stole my thunder. Yesterday in my FLGS, I saw tons of d20, tons of GURPS, tons of everything, and one lonely PHB and one lonely copy of Assault on Blacktooth Ridge. It's over 6 months since release of the PHB, and the only C&C related material available is... that? Not good.

Also, so far I'm not wowed with AoBR.

I'm glad C&C exists, and it's a great, great system, but without the release of CZ I'm not sure how much traction is going to get there.

Also, bummer that they lost most of the web boards to hacking along with lots o other ezboard folks.

BB

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:17 pm

Gentlegamer wrote:I would gladly buy a True d20 basic rulebook, but I don't want any of the Blue Rose setting with it . . .

The core rules (96 pages) are available from GR as a pdf at RPG.now.

GR is doing a 'setting search' over the next few months, so that the print version of the rules will include 1-3 sample campaigns (hopefully from different genres).

I really dislike the BR setting, and so waited for the 'setting free' version of the rules before purchasing them. Happy that it is now available! A complete game -- in 96 pages.

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 1:22 pm

Anonymous wrote: ... An old school renaissance could be on the horizon. C&C is ahead of the game for the moment but this won't remain the case for long. Already Green Ronin are toying with the idea of going rules lite and have put True20 out to RPG publishers for settings an ideas. ...

I think it is a mistake to equate 'old school' games with 'rules light' games.

E.g. The Angel and Buffy games from Eden have been quite successful (given their niche status), and are rules light in nature, but certainly not 'old school'. Conversely, Runequest 2e is about as 'old school' as one can get, but is definitely not 'rules light' (and neither is OAD&D, IMO).

True 20 is trying to be a 'rules light' alternative to d20 (it has many other, generally favourable, differences as well). It is definitely not trying to be 'old school'.

In contrast, 'old school' is one of C&C's main selling points.

scadgrad · Post by **scadgrad** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:43 pm

Guest makes some very interesting points. I haven't looked at True20, but when the print product comes out, I'll most likely give it a look. I too have picked up WHFB, but that's a totally different game and has an pre-existing (and a large one at that) fan base to draw from.

True20 is a competitor IMO in that it's clearly a rules lite/narrative-strong game. I'm pretty much down w/ the old school angle that C&C has cultivated, but it's simplicty and ease-of-integration w/ all versions of D&D is its strongest selling point for many potential customers.

I hate to say it, but I've been a bit disappointed w/ the release of C&C materials. I realize that TLG is a small organization, but the Trolls need to take a stronger look at its loyal fan base for some assistance if for nothing else than PDF support materials.

Akrasia · Post by **Akrasia** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:47 pm

scadgrad wrote: ...
I hate to say it, but I've been a bit disappointed w/ the release of C&C materials. ...

Are you disappointed in terms of quantity or quality?

scadgrad · Post by **scadgrad** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:05 pm

Quantity and the release schedule. I don't expect them to go nuts and flood the market, but let's be honest here there's certainly a lot of room for improvement. It's just frustrating for me as a very vocal C&C "evangelist." I am seriously concerned w/ the "threat" that True20 and Green Ronin represents as a competing rule lite D&D game.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:18 pm

Hmmm... Well, let's see something:

C&C is what, 6 months old?

So, when a new system is developed, its expected that 500 different products for it are released all at once?

Hmmm.... since when?

D&D 3.0 released at GenCon 2000. Only the PHB. Takes nearly 6 months to see anything else for the game.

AD&D MM released, takes what, a year to see the PHB or DMG?

There are only a few companies that have the kind of mass production you're talking about... one of them is WHFRG, BUT the major difference here, folks, is they have at least 10 times the number of people, AND a HUGE amount of material ALREADY created. They didn't have to develop it on their own. It was there, just needing a few little changes. One can say Erde is like this, but it can't be converted without a full system to go with it....... and that's the difference.

Mongoose, on the other hand, has a sort of "write it, print it" attitude. That is how, and why, they get what, 4 books a month out (seems like it, anyway), but... these books are riddles with misinformation, layout issues, and so on and so forth... not to mention constant criticism of their "not understanding" the game. Conan is a little different in this respect, but its not like they're making 500 resources for it, either.

I get the fact that you want to see more stuff for C&C. I'm 100% with you. The PHB, M&T, CZ, and various other sundry projects eat up time, and since everything passes the desk and gets OKd by the Trolls (not to mention that Gary wanted last-minute changes to CZ which is his right, but does cause it to be delayed somewhat), it causes the shorter stuff to be pressed to the side. Once M&T is out (which it is) and CZ (soon), much more will come through the pipes.

Being disappointed in this makes no sense to me. The game just started.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:23 pm

serleran wrote:
So, when a new system is developed, its expected that 500 different products for it are released all at once?

No one mentioned 500 products. I don't think even the most demanding gamer would hope, or could afford, that much stuff.

[edit by Fiffergrund] - I guess hyperbole is lost on you, eh?

Hmmm.... since when?

...since never. You made it up.

[edit by Fiffergrund] Sign in if you want to be snarky.

D&D 3.0 released at GenCon 2000. Only the PHB. Takes nearly 6 months to see anything else for the game.

Dangerous comparison. I doubt C&C will rival D&D 3.x anytime soon - if ever.

[edited by Fiffergrund] - That wasn't his point. His point was that even a company with resources like WOTC took 6 months to publish something after the first book came out. Duh. But you're too interested in being a wise-ass to actually read what he said.

they have at least 10 times the number of people

I don't think there is an expectation that Trolls can compete with that. But come on we're talking one book (two with CZ - and didn't Gary already have the material for this or is that just BS to help sell it).

[edited by Fiffergrund] Translation: "I know nothing about the circumstances but I think I do and therefore I'm talking out of my ass." Oh, and hand-drawn maps and handwritten notes aren't printworthy, are they? Come on, use some common sense before you shoot your mouth off!

AND a HUGE amount of material ALREADY created. They didn't have to develop it on their own. It was there, just needing a few little changes. One can say Erde is like this, but it can't be converted without a full system to go with it....... and that's the difference.

...what do you call grabbing the SRD then. Trolls have added a few of there own ideas agreed and they are magnificant but the spells are all SRD ( and they take up over half the book).

[edited by Fiffer] Well, genius, as OGL, it HAD to use the SRD. I rewrote at least 1/3 of those spells in my own words. So once again, it's proven you don't know what you're talking about.

Mongoose, on the other hand, has a sort of "write it, print it" attitude. That is how, and why, they get what, 4 books a month out (seems like it, anyway), but... these books are riddles with misinformation, layout issues, and so on and so forth... not to mention constant criticism of their "not understanding" the game. Conan is a little different in this respect, but its not like they're making 500 resources for it, either.

But they sell because they are on shelves not sitting in warehouses waiting to be shown to mates first at some Convention.

[edited by Fiffer] Once again, Guest is ignorant. Have you any idea how long it takes a book to go through distribution channels once it's back from the printer? Let's see...it came in last week. Origins is this week. Last I knew it took 3-4 weeks to get through distribution. So take your comment and shove it, to put it bluntly.

...much more will come through the pipes.

Not according to the amount of fanying about you just described. I doubt this very much.

[edited by Fiffer] Quite frankly, your doubts don't mean much, in light of the ignorance you've shown to this point.

Being disappointed in this makes no sense to me.

It won't will it because you're not the one claiming dissapointment.

[edited by Fiffer] You're not disappointed - you're just a troll.

Log in, or bugger off.

KewlMarine32 · Post by **KewlMarine32** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:27 pm

I don't think even the most demanding gamer would hope, or could afford, that much stuff.

I can...

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:36 pm

M&T's out. Zagyg and Dark Chateau are soon to follow. SHadow of the Halfling Hall and a few other modules are trotting out here in the next month or so

The delay is much to do with finding more helpful people to do editing and such quality control issues. Which go a long way to improving the products overall.

Nevertheless. Such things take time, even with many hands and eyes on the project.

So there are real, time constraint, reasons why.

Quality control takes time. Either a bit of extra time is needed, or the same complaints as were on the first books will occur again.

Which is it that people want? And, more importantly, how much of their own time are many 'volunteers' going to give up to make it happen?

Gentlegamer · Post by **Gentlegamer** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Akrasia wrote: The core rules (96 pages) are available from GR as a pdf at RPG.now.

GR is doing a 'setting search' over the next few months, so that the print version of the rules will include 1-3 sample campaigns (hopefully from different genres).

I really dislike the BR setting, and so waited for the 'setting free' version of the rules before purchasing them. Happy that it is now available! A complete game -- in 96 pages.

Thanks for the heads up!

scadgrad · Post by **scadgrad** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:07 pm

@ Serleran & Gideon,

Take a deep breath fellows and remember I'm on your side.

I am very well aware of how long it takes to do print production. You'll recall that I make my living teaching college students to do just that. But really fellows, there are ways to make the crusade more effective. Maybe I'm the only C&C fan who wants to see that happen and am willing and able to help, but I doubt it. I'm sure there are others who are a bit concerned that more and more rules lite games are coming and that C&C needs to stake out its position as "the firstest with the mostest," to use a phrase from an old business Prof I had back in undergrad.

Most of us don't see the game as being a mere 6 months old, but more like 10 months, closing on a year w/ the approach of GenCon. IIRC, the box set was released about that time. I don't believe I'm alone in saying that we (as in the extremely loyal and supportive fans) would have expected to have seen at least the M&T at this point and been anticipating the release of CKG by GenCon. With the advent of desktop publishing, none of us expect a release schedule to be anything like that of TSR back in the 70s.

What can we do to make it better:

First off, we gotta ditch the EZ Boards and move to PHP BB and after that, those boards somehow need to become more active. Not sure how to make that happen, but it's something to shoot for.

How 'bout some more web stuff. Making decent quality PDF support docs for already released product isn't all that big of a deal. Look at what Necromancer does. Need maps, illos, editing, layout for such, I'm pretty sure that you'd be surprised at what the Society members are capable of contributing if need be.

Would it be too much to ask for a design diary or a monthly column from one of the Trolls?

How 'bout a web article on converting 3.5 critters there Serleran?

I believe there is still much that could be done to push C&C forward even more. It's called constructive criticism guys, that's all. No one wants shoddy product, we just want to push the crusade forward.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:18 pm

Im not upset, or irritated. The textual medium just makes emotion hard to convey. But on that note...

These are all very good ideas, and if anyone wishes to take up the task of doing any of these im sure Steve and Davis would be glad of the assist.

Present the main man with a finished and ready to go plan on how its to be done though.

scadgrad wrote:
What can we do to make it better:

First off, we gotta ditch the EZ Boards and move to PHP BB and after that, those boards somehow need to become more active. Not sure how to make that happen, but it's something to shoot for.

How 'bout some more web stuff. Making decent quality PDF support docs for already released product isn't all that big of a deal. Look at what Necromancer does. Need maps, illos, editing, layout for such, I'm pretty sure that you'd be surprised at what the Society members are capable of contributing if need be.

Would it be too much to ask for a design diary or a monthly column from one of the Trolls?

How 'bout a web article on converting 3.5 critters there Serleran?

I believe there is still much that could be done to push C&C forward even more. It's called constructive criticism guys, that's all. No one wants shoddy product, we just want to push the crusade forward.

Mythmere · Post by **Mythmere** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:22 pm

Hey, Scadgrad, I'm with you. And I'll point out to anyone that you've offered to put your time where your mouth is by offering artwork and help with a C&C Society pdf.

Anyone with complaints who offers to help fix them is a five-star person.

I think there will be serious competitors. I don't think they're a response to C&C, I think they're a response to the same forces and opinions that led TLG to hit this market (first, fortunately).

To take advantage of being first to market, TLG has some very real benchmarks to hit, or that advantage will be lost in the power of marketing a lite d20 game to people who want a lite d20 game. They may not be as interested in taking that first stab at C&C.

TLG's small staff doesn't change the facts. It's the reason that many small companies are swamped and overturned by bigger competitors who hit a market late.

Scadgrad describes the problems exactly. The slow roll-out and certain quality control issues can only be addressed by TLG - and many people are willing to help with what they can.

What we can do as fans (other than continuing to evangelize, as many, many of us do) is to produce materials on our own. TLG could really help this process along by coming up with a policy that lets people use critical things like identifying something as "for C&C" and gives legal guidelines. Emailing Steve for permission just doesn't work - has anyone ever gotten an email back giving permission on one of these requests?

There is a risk to C&C, and there is a lot we as fans can do. There is also a lot that TLG can do, and has to manage to do - or the initial impetus of C&C could slow down. So far, TLG has done wonders for a company of its size, but the market doesn't care about size or fairness.

And while the PHB is still the weak 1st printing, the only thing we've got is the inherent quality of the game. Which is significant, but not a guarantee.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:26 pm

How 'bout a web article on converting 3.5 critters there Serleran?

Its in M&T, in vague terms. For the most part, a lot of it is pure intuitive creativity.

As far as other support material.. Peter has my proposal for an M&T WE. I don't know if any of it will be used, and some of it may be chopped and stuck in the CKG. I don't know.

I'm on your side too, scadgrad, really. Sometimes, I think there's more to an issue than the upper layer, so I try to explain, in general, what I think is underneath.

I agree that ezBoards is not the way to go, but I don't personally know of another that would work as well, or better... but, I'm not into that sort of thing (I've made a few, but they died after a month due to lack of people and my boredom with posting to myself.)

Driver · Post by **Driver** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:06 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:Which is it that people want? And, more importantly, how much of their own time are many 'volunteers' going to give up to make it happen?

I would prefer to see a molasses-slow release schedule along with a significant increase in quality control. This is assuming that the alternative is a rapid output and quality control similar to that seen in the PHB.

I would happily volunteer my own time as a proofreader or playtester. I contemplated buying a second PHB to mark up with red pen and send back.

Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:25 pm

All I can really say on this topic is I'd rather wait another six months for M&T instead of getting the kind of quality that's accepted as normal today. And, by normal, I mean the entire industry. I'm so sick of huge color pictures that take up half the book, slick borders that do the same, and books full of enough rules problems to drive you mad. By comparison, the C&C phb was golden. The grammar/spelling editing was flubbed (nobody can deny that) but it has less rules problems than most any other game system I've seen on the market recently (I admit I haven't seen them all).

Anyway, I'm not here to talk about the phb. I'm here to talk about C&C. The Trolls are doing everything that can be expected (and much more) for a small company putting out such a hot product (and, according to all my sources it IS hot). The phb hit the stands and people loved the game but complained about the editing. The Trolls listened (a company that listens to its fans...understand how lucky you are guys) and now they're getting crap because they're taking their time with the books and making sure they're done right?

The stuff is coming and it's looking better each time we see it. We've been given two free adventures, a monster pdf, previews, etc. I don't know what more you guys want from a company of this size.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just hate to see such good guys catching the short end of the stick no matter what they do. But I guess that's the nature of the beast.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:56 pm

The door is still open. Those who wish to see PDF adventures as freebie things put those creative minds to use.

There is a C&C yahoo group with some good ideas started. Run with that. Even if its 8 pages and a small temple. Put it together and send it my way. I'll put it under steve's nose, he can write up the legal babble, and up it goes as a PDF.

It all starts with the fans producing such mini adventures as a complete, ready to go deal.

Have at it.

Bloodcat · Post by **Bloodcat** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:49 pm

But they sell because they are on shelves not sitting in warehouses waiting to be shown to mates first at some Convention.

Oh sweet Cthulhu YES. Im so sick of every major release seemingly held up for Gencon or Origins every damned year. Im 31 and have been gaming since I was 13. I have NEVER been to a single con, much less these major ones. Ive gamed with around 200 plus people over the years and maybe 3 have been to a con.

Every game company has to stop pulling this crap. Release the product when its ready sure. But to hold on or schedule every new SKU for a summer con? WTF man. It doesn't help sales or popularity anyhow. (Especially given how everyone else does the same bleeding thing. Its the same silliness that hurts videogames. When your product is fighting with a few dozen-hundred other new/big time releases not only are you gonna get lost in the shuffle, but you are less likely to be noticed. Luckily hobby gaming is a very popularity/word of mouth driven industry so games have a longer shelf life, but the basic concepts are the same.)

JDJarvis · Post by **JDJarvis** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:53 pm

I dont see why some folks are so gosh darned impatient, it took 2.5 years for the first 3 AD&D hardovers to be released. Didn't see any DMG in my parts until christmas season 1979.