In Defense of "Castle Blackmoor"

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Le Noir Faineant
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In Defense of "Castle Blackmoor"

Post by Le Noir Faineant »

Hi all,

I received my copy of "Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor" yesterday.

I wasn't expecting much of it, since word is in general that the book is pretty mediocre.

However, this newest release of Dave Arneson's new company, Zeitgeist Games, has come to surprise me a lot!

:-)

Well, of course, one might note that I am one of ZGG's top fanboys, since I am a moderator in their Blackmoor online community, and so, my sympathy for the ZGG books in general can be taken as granted.

But since I was a BM fan long before I got involved there, and came to know BM via the FFC and Greyhawk, I think I can judge objectively, or at least try to do so.

The book itself is nicely done softcover; art and maps are, of course, not at the high measure that NG and GG have set, but oldschool enough to charm me. I think a bit of the old Mayfair books when I see them.

After a short introduction, 20 levels of pure dungeon are described. Many ogres, many goblins, vampires, and later, all sorts of demonic entities.

For today's high standards, the setting of the dungeon might be pretty boring - just descending one castle dungeon level after another; but if we keep in mind that this was the place that started it all, I can live with it.

Now, levels 1 to 10 are really, more or less, a copy of the orginal FFC dungeon. A charming reprint, more usable in terms of playability than the old FFC. (Which, being such a rare collector's item, is too precious

to me to peruse.)

As to levels 10 to 20, I don't know how much "Arneson" is really in there, but they fit nicely.with the beginning I doubt that anyone will ever come to confront the critters of the last levels, but it is definitely set up well.

The only real flaw of the book is really that it is too short - such a dungeon of epic proportions, and center of the Blackmoor universe, should be treated in a more detailed manner, with more explanations of the presented

situations.

Certainly, DoCBM is no Rappan thuk, and maybe not even a Thracia, but apart from its minor flaws, it's a solid, yet not perfect mega dungeon.

For me personally, it might be of great use in future campaigns around Blackmoor Town.

I would also recommend it for Hawkers, since, from my knowledge and perceiving, one can use it as Greyhawk's BM dungeon without any alteration.

It should be noted that the book bears no info on Blackmoor Town, except for some minimal general info - IMO, this is not too bad, since it keeps the setting generic. The plots that one pursues in the different levels are

setting-unspecific as well, another point that I like, since this provides liberty for the DMs to create their own stories and combine it with the dungeon at will.

Indeed, I sometimes get the feeling that this book is aimed more at the Greyhawk market than at the actual Blackmoor fan community.

While I realize d20 is not everyone's cup of tea, I think *Dungeons of Castle Blackmoor* will appeal to most of the "oldschool" community, because it stays true to the original, is set up straightforward, and almost

universally applicable. While I would recommend most people to check the previews first, I personally think it may be the best "oldschool" d20 buy since the WL Box.

Yours,

Rafael




PS: Of course, don't understand this as a review - it's purely subjective. But I think many people might think to skip the book for the ill press reviews it gets, and might miss what I see as a real jewel of gaming. :-)
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Post by jrients »

Thanks for the info!
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Post by serleran »

Now, levels 1 to 10 are really, more or less, a copy of the orginal FFC dungeon.
This, to me, is the only reason to consider the product.
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Post by WSmith »

Ivid, how is the text presented? Are long d20 stats inline, at the back of the book, or are there references like "Orc, p. x MN"? I would like to know how much d20 rules stuff in mixed in with the fluff.
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Post by Mythmere »

WSmith wrote:Ivid, how is the text presented? Are long d20 stats inline, at the back of the book, or are there references like "Orc, p. x MN"? I would like to know how much d20 rules stuff in mixed in with the fluff.
Agreed. d20 stat blocks are the main reason I don't even look at d20 products any more. You can't even read these monstrosities in a linear fashion any more; it's read - look for text beyound stat block - oops, no wait, I skipped some text, this is a different stat block - backtrack - read - repeat. About 20% of many d20 books is occupied with stat blocks!

I'd be happy to read the JG/NG books for ideas, otherwise.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

From what I see, stat blocks are minimal in the Blackmoor products. Seems more informational than mechanical by a large percentage. Same as the Necro Judges Guild stuff actually. :)
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Post by Omote »

Sounds like this would have been good for the REVIEW section. Just saying... :wink:

I own the DoCBM for the old-schoolness. I picked upa copy at GenCon. And while there are certain cool aspects to the super-dungeon, overall I think this is one lame duck of a product. The cover is way too dark, and there is nothing inspiring about the contents. The dungeon itself (having never DM'd of played in it) looks bland as hell, and I stopped reading after like 50 pages or so.

IMO, not a good product.

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Post by Grimaryl Atyar »

I think they did a good job within the parameters they set for themselves on this product, but they should have went crazy with it. Lots more detail, more maps, everything. Very dissapointing that such a "historical" piece of the RPG industry got such a minimal treatment.

Plus the quality of what they did do is just too, average.
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Re: In Defense of "Castle Blackmoor"

Post by rogueattorney »

Ivid wrote:For today's high standards, the setting of the dungeon might be pretty boring...
Not liking the dungeon delving aspect of Dungeons & Dragons does not equal "high standards."

Just sayin' :D
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Post by PaSquall »

Thanks for the review !

A few questions : what size are the levels ? How many rooms in each level (average) ? Are the levels laid with some kind of logic, or just like random-generated mazes ?
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Post by Finarvyn »

Grimaryl Atyar wrote: Very dissapointing that such a "historical" piece of the RPG industry got such a minimal treatment.

Plus the quality of what they did do is just too, average.
I guess I have to second this assessment. I had high hopes for the Blackmoor products and I'm just having a hard time getting really inspired over them. Too d20-ish in feel and content.

Re-reading the FFC book is a lot more fun. :(
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Post by Simak »

This is just my opinion, but.........I really wish I didn't have to read anything about d20 on this forum. Do modern day D&D forums bring up 1st ed rules? How about 1st ed product? Does any of the creators of D&D get any credit for all that they done to make D&D what it is on modern D&D forums? If not, why should I give d20 products the time of day. Again, this is just my opinion.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Simak wrote: Do modern day D&D forums bring up 1st ed rules? How about 1st ed product? Does any of the creators of D&D get any credit for all that they done to make D&D what it is on modern D&D forums?
Yes. All the time. :)
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Post by The GM »

Simak wrote:This is just my opinion, but.........I really wish I didn't have to read anything about d20 on this forum. Do modern day D&D forums bring up 1st ed rules? How about 1st ed product? Does any of the creators of D&D get any credit for all that they done to make D&D what it is on modern D&D forums? If not, why should I give d20 products the time of day. Again, this is just my opinion.
I hear you, but this is a reprint and expansion of an old-school product. Discussing the D20 aspect so that people can determine how to hack it out should be just fine, don't you think? ;).

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Post by Le Noir Faineant »

WSmith wrote:Ivid, how is the text presented? Are long d20 stats inline, at the back of the book, or are there references like "Orc, p. x MN"? I would like to know how much d20 rules stuff in mixed in with the fluff.
Basically, stat policy varies. In general, I think it's safe to say that the monsters are not the main focus, but the description of the rooms and on, which is god, of course.
Simak wrote:This is just my opinion, but.........I really wish I didn't have to read anything about d20 on this forum. Do modern day D&D forums bring up 1st ed rules? How about 1st ed product? Does any of the creators of D&D get any credit for all that they done to make D&D what it is on modern D&D forums? If not, why should I give d20 products the time of day. Again, this is just my opinion.
No problem. I am glad that the mods let me bring up this article here.

I normally wouldn't post about such things here, but I thought this could be a topic of common interest, like the WL Box and the CZ series earlier.
WSmith wrote:Ivid, how is the text presented? Are long d20 stats inline, at the back of the book, or are there references like "Orc, p. x MN"?
All stats are inline, but generally short. There are overview tables for each dungeon level that I find very useful, where only MM references are given. (Easy to convert, of course.)
WSmith wrote: I would like to know how much d20 rules stuff in mixed in with the fluff.
Not much, as well. For a d20 book, stats are pretty minimal most of the time, though, of course, the big bosses are stated out extensively.
serleran wrote: This, to me, is the only reason to consider the product.
Then, better wait until ZGG brings the original FFC back as PDF some time next year. The book's just too expensive too buy it fout of *luxury*. :)
Omote wrote: The dungeon itself (having never DM'd of played in it) looks bland as hell, and I stopped reading after like 50 pages or so.
/quote]

This is basically what I meant - if you are a DM who already has seen, say ToEE, Dark Tower, or Undermountain, this dungeon will hold no challenge for you. Still, since it is so simple, it seems usable for easy and quick dungeon-delving.
Grimaryl Atyar wrote:I think they did a good job within the parameters they set for themselves on this product, but they should have went crazy with it. Lots more detail, more maps, everything. Very dissapointing that such a "historical" piece of the RPG industry got such a minimal treatment.

Plus the quality of what they did do is just too, average.
That's what I see as a flaw as well. The book is just too short.

Instead of giving 20 levels of dungeon, I would have liked ZGG to present, say 15, but those more detailed and with more flavour, and more setting-specific details.

Then again, as the prolific DM I am, I welcome that they set things short.

The much I like to read through monster dungeon, the painful is it to prepare them for gaming.

And this might be the one big advantage that makes me like this book: It's not overcomplex and easy to present to players.

In general, I am the kind of DM who only buys stuff that he really wants to play some day. While I gain nothing from defending ZGG's way of publishing, this book is a better addition to my gaming library than the last two adventures I bought. (For what it's worth, the FR adventure "Into the Dragon's Lair" and "Burok Torn".)

For sure there are better books out there, especially with WotC now rereleasing so many other classics, but for me personally, this is a book to treasure.
:)
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Post by Le Noir Faineant »

PaSquall wrote: A few questions : what size are the levels ?
Sorry, had just overlooked your questions. :oops:

In in-game dimension, the levels vary from extensive dungeons and mazes to small temple-like arrangements.

All is helt pretty short - no level, even the biggest ones with ~40 detailed locations get more info than 10 to 20 pages.

This, IMO is one of the book's strengths, because, though some of the levels are pretty extensive, the reading demanded from the DM is kept short as well.
How many rooms in each level (average) ?
Every level gets about 20 to 40 detailed locations.
Are the levels laid with some kind of logic, or just like random-generated mazes ?


The levels indeed follow Arneson's original designs.

Every bunch of levels, a new faction of monsters is presented that all claim the dungeons as their own.

Levels 12 to 14 are the setting of an epic fight between giants and entities from the plane of fire.

Level 15 marks the end of a logical progress - it's supposed to be the deepest level of the castle, and the lair of famous vampire Fang.

After that, one travels into the depths of the earth via teleporting. This part of the dungeon, while very "fluffy" is the one I liked the least, because it's too much aimed at real epic level 3e play.

However, all in all, I am going to give up my megadungeon-aversion next year and run a nice campaign there as soon as possible. :)

Already have some ideas at hand...
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Post by PaSquall »

Thank you :)
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Post by Le Noir Faineant »

PaSquall wrote:Thank you :)
You're welcome. I hope nobody is disappointed when he checks the bok after reading my review.
Mythmere wrote:Where's it to be found? Is there a link?
What do you mean? Previews for DoCBM can be found at www.dablackmoor.com, if I am not mistaken. :)
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Post by PaSquall »

Ivid wrote:
PaSquall wrote:Thank you :)
You're welcome. I hope nobody is disappointed when he checks the bok after reading my review.
I can't possibly be totally disappointed, I'm a sucker for megadungeons :D . 2007 is gonna be a great year for that matter. Need shelf space...
From what you said, I'll assume castle Blackmoor should convert easily to 1E/2E and that's already a good point. Do you know when it's released ?
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Post by Grimaryl Atyar »

It should be released since Ivid has it in Germany. The only reason I was able to give him my early opinion is I picked it up at GenCon. I asked Ivid if he wanted me to pick it up for him and mail it, but he waited.
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Post by PaSquall »

My (F)LGS didn't have it last thursday. Well, I can wait a few weeks...
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Post by Mythmere »

Amazon has it on preorders, that's why I asked if there was a link to it. I didn't realize it wasn't available, since so many people had already seen it.
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Post by WSmith »

Thanks for the info, Ivid.
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Post by Mythmere »

This is something I might get...I don't have the original.
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Post by Le Noir Faineant »

The book should be out for public world-wide release from November; it can already be ordered directly via the ZGG page, though I don't know if the company still has copies left.

As to using the DoCBM book instead of the FFC, that was exactly the reason I wanted it - the FFC is just to precious to me to use it for usual gaming. :)
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Post by qstor »

I got mine at GenCon Indy. Not sure if they had advance copies there or not.

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Post by havard »

qstor wrote:I got mine at GenCon Indy. Not sure if they had advance copies there or not.
What do you think of it?

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