Turn Undead by edition (B/X through 5E)

[morikahn]

I'm preparing to make a module about a party of clerics of diverse faiths entering a massive, and recently cursed, graveyard to save civilians stranded within. My goal is to make versions of this module for Mentzer B/X, AD&D, and 2nd AD&D. The Turn Undead ability will obviously play a large role in the module, so I decided to do some research into it to see exactly how it differs per edition.

I did a google search for this information and wasn't able to find something definitive, so I'm going to post what I found here. I'll also include 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition for fun.



Holmes

Turn Undead is determined by rolling on a matrix that compares undead type vs the cleric's level. An integer result of '7, 9, or 11' is the target number the priest needs to roll equal to or higher than with 2d6 to succeed. A 'T' is an automatic turn. A 'D' dispels the undead creature and it "disappears and is gone forever." A dash result means the undead type is too powerful for the cleric to turn.

When more than one undead is present, the DM rolls 2d6 to determine how many undead are affected.

There is no mention of how to handle mixed groups of undead, how long undead remain frightened of the cleric, if the cleric may attempt to turn more undead the next round, or ranges of the ability. It does not mention if the cleric can attack normally and Turn Undead at the same time (though I think few would interpret this omissions as allowing it).



Mentzer/Moldavy

Mentzer has an identical matrix as holmes but differs in how many undead creatures are affected when a cleric successfully Turns Undead. Instead of rolling to determine how many undead creatures flee, the DM rolls 2d6 to determine the total Hit Dice affected (with a minimum of one creature). This drastically reduces the amount of undead affected on each successful Turn Undead attempt. Where a roll of a seven before would cause seven zombies to flee, now only three are affected.

Also, it is explicitly stated that a cleric may attempt to Turn Undead every round until he or she fails on a roll, in which case no more attempts can be made during that encounter. It is implied that the cleric must choose which undead type to attempt to Turn each round.

Turned undead will remain out of the cleric's vicinity for 1d10 rounds, at which point they will return if a Reaction roll of 2d6 is 8 or higher.

A cleric can not attack and Turn Undead at the same time. Ranges of the ability are not given.

When undead are destroyed rather than turned, it is the DM's prerogative to how this occurs: catch on fire, disintegrate into dust, etc. At high levels, the amount of hit dice affected for low level undead can increase up to 4d6.



Advanced Dungeons & Dragons

The prose in the AD&D, at least in regards to Turn Undead, is a little hard to follow. I've conferred with several members here that prefer this rule set.

A d20 replaces the 2d6 used to determine if a Turn Undead attempt is successful and the integer results in the matrix have been expanded to include 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, and 20. This increases the range of undead low level clerics can affect.

The "D" result on the chart now represents destroyed or damned.

A cleric can attempt to turn each undead type once in each encounter, each turn attempt taking a round, starting with the lowest hit dice monsters first, and working up from there. If at any time the cleric fails a Turn Undead attempt, nor further attempts can be made. Optionally, in the case of mixed groups of undead types where weaker undead are in service to a powerful undead creature within the group, the cleric must roll high enough to successfully turn the master to affect its underlings.

The DM rolls to determine how many are affected using a d12. This range is replaced with 1d6+6 for high level clerics vs low level undead. It is also possible for high level clerics to turn 1d2 low level demons or devils at high level. These being will flee the area for 3-12 rounds (either d10+2 or 3d4, not specified). The cleric can attempt to turn these undead again if they return.

Evil clerics that achieve a 'T' result when turning undead can compel them to do a service in the same regards as the Invisible Stalker spell functions. This lasts for up to 24 hours, depending on the difficulty of the turn attempt. A "D" result indicates cooperative service by the undead as long as the evil cleric renews his or her control every 6 days.

Optionally, an evil cleric can only control up his level in hit dice of undead.

Also added are rules for allowing evil clerics to turn good aligned beings and paladins.



Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 2nd Edition

2nd Edition AD&D uses a similar chart as AD&D except generic hit dice amounts are listed alongside the standard undead types, for use in attempting to turn paladins and non-standard undead.

A cleric or paladin can attempt to Turn Undead only once per encounter, per character. Only one d20 is rolled regardless of the number of types of undead the character is attempting to turn. The result is read individually for each type of undead.

On a successful attempt, 2d6 undead are affected, starting with the lowest hit dice creatures first and moving up until either there are no more undead, the 2d6 total is reached, or the initial d20 roll is insufficient to turn that type of undead. High level clerics can turn an additional 2d4 low-level undead.

There are no rules for master undead protecting minions. Undead bound by the orders of another (e.g., skeletons) simply retreat and allow the character and those with him to pass or complete their actions.

Free-willed undead will attempt to leave the vicinity of the cleric, and if that is not possible remain at least 10 feet from the cleric. There is no duration for how long a turn lasts, the cleric can maintain it for as long as he or she is able.

Evil priests can control up 12 undead. They can attempt to turn paladins, being treated as three levels lower.



Dungeons & Dragons, 3rd Edition

This edition is a serious break from previous editions. Undead types are no longer relevant; all turning attempts are based on creature Hit Dice.

Clerics can Turn Undead 3 times per day, modified by their Charisma. They can boost this by taking certain feats.

When attempting to Turn Undead, the cleric makes a Turning Check (d20 + his or her charisma modifier) that determines the highest possible hit dice creature they can affect. This is a range from 4 Hit Dice lower than their current level up to 4 Hit Dice greater than their current level.

Starting from undead closest to their person and working outwards up to 60', the cleric will turn 2d6 + their level + their charisma modifier in Hit Dice of undead, ignoring undead that have greater hit dice than that rolled on the initial turn table.

Turned creatures will flee for 10 rounds to the best of their ability. If the cleric approaches within 10 feet of the undead, the effect breaks. The cleric can attack the undead with ranged weapons from further than 10 feet and his or her allies can attack normally.

Undead with half the hit dice of the cleric are destroyed instead of turned. This means clerics destroy 1 HD skeletons at level 2!

Evil clerics may control undead they would have normally destroyed, up to their hit dice in levels. They can also bolster undead with their Turn Undead ability: the hit dice result on the d20 roll become the effective hit dice of his minions for purposes of determining if a good cleric can attempt to turn them.

No rules given on evil clerics attempting to turn paladins (I assume this was taken out.)

There is no generalized rule for undead masters protecting their minions, however new spells have been added reduce the effectiveness of Turn Undead, and could be used by master undead for such purposes.

Additionally, certain powerful undead types have a turn resistance ability that increase their effective hit dice against Turn Undead. The demilich, for example, is a 21HD creature in this edition, but is treated as 41 HD when a cleric attempt to turn one. This would require, at minimum, a level 37 cleric!



Dungeons & Dragons, 4th Edition

This edition rewrites the entire concept of Turn Undead.

Once per encounter, a cleric can choose to use his or her Channel Divinity power to Turn Undead.

All undead within 20 feet must contest their will score vs the cleric's wisdom score or suffer 1d8, plus the cleric's wisdom score modifier, in radiant damage. They are also pushed 30 feet away from the cleric (greater for clerics with high charisma), and are immobilized for the rest of the round. High level clerics will do more damage, up to 3d8.

If the undead succeeds in the will vs wisdom check, they still suffer half the damage they would have normally received.



Dungeons & Dragons, 5th Edition

5th edition D&D is more similar to the 2nd edition and earlier approaches, but no longer relies on comparisons between cleric's level and creature hit dice.

Starting at level 2, a cleric gains the Channel Divinity ability. This power can be used to Turn Undead or another ability, specific to their deity. Once used, it can not be used again until the cleric has taken a short or long rest, which is short hand for an hour long break or a nights nap. At higher level, the cleric gains the ability to use Channel Divinity more than once between rests.

When attempting to Turn Undead, all undead within 30 feet that can see or hear the cleric must make a Wisdom Saving throw, or be forced to flee for 1 minute. They can not willingly move within 30' feet of the cleric. If impeded from said flight, they can attempt to remove any obstacles. If incapable of doing even that, they will attempt to dodge any attacks.

At 5th level, the cleric's Turn Undead ability can destroy undead if they are of an insufficient CR rating, starting at CR 1/2 at cleric level 5, and up to CR 4 at cleric level 17.

There are no rules, in the 5th Edition Player's Handbook at least, for evil cleric's and control of undead. Its quite possible this is listed in the Dungeon Master's Guide which I don't have access to.



That's it. If anyone finds any mistakes or discrepancies, please post them and let me know. The first edition rules were by far the hardest to work through, so I won't be surprised if there is an error there. I won't bias any discussion as to which method I think is superior (though I will say 4th edition's mechanic seems probably the worst as they resemble a video game rather than a role playing game).

[Matthew-]

You might find this short article I write a while back interesting, if you have not already seen it: Turning Ability.

[FreddyP]

Cool breakdown, mori.

[morikahn]

Thanks Fred.

And nice article Matthew. You look spot on with Gygax's methodology to obtaining those target numbers in the first edition Turn Undead chart.

Its interesting to see how each designer tried to reign in the Turn Undead in different ways after Holmes.

• Moldavy reduced the rate it could affect high level undead
• Gygax allowed one turn per undead type, and added in the ability of master undead to protect their minions
• 2nd edition drastically reduced the amount of undead one could affect, the least of all editions I think.
• 3rd edition completely removed undead categories and made it all about range, plus gave evil priests the ability to protect their controlled minions
• 4th edition turned it into a damage/push spell (I can just see the World Of Warcraft special effect in my head)
• 5th edition turned it into a fear spell, with minor destruction capabilities at high levels.

[Matthew-]

Thanks Fred.

And nice article Matthew. You look spot on with Gygax's methodology to obtaining those target numbers in the first edition Turn Undead chart.

Its interesting to see how each designer tried to reign in the Turn Undead in different ways after Holmes.

• 2nd edition drastically reduced the amount of undead one could affect, the least of all editions I think.

Do you mean B/X? 2E is more or less the same as 1E in terms of numbers, I think.

[morikahn]

Do you mean B/X? 2E is more or less the same as 1E in terms of numbers, I think.

In 2nd edition, the cleric gets one turn attempt and can only affect 2d6 undead. Then he or she is done for the encounter. In 1st Edition, the cleric can turn multiple rounds, once per undead type, and turn 1-12 of them, each.

So, if a first edition cleric met a group of 12 skeletons, 12 zombies, and 12 ghouls, he or she would turn 1-12 of each group over the course of three rounds (assuming survival), with the small possibility of turning them all.

A 2nd edition cleric would get 1 turn attempt, and at best could only turn all the skeletons.

In B/X, the cleric could turn indefinitely each round, but would be Turning Hit Dice, which become less and less effective against the higher level undead. On average, it would take the cleric 9 rounds to turn all the undead present (60 HD / 7 avg.)

[Thorkhammer]

Looks right, but...

My goal is to make versions of this module for Mentzer B/X, AD&D, and 2nd AD&D.

So why the love for 3-4-5E

[FreddyP]

Do you mean B/X? 2E is more or less the same as 1E in terms of numbers, I think.

In 2nd edition, the cleric gets one turn attempt and can only affect 2d6 undead. Then he or she is done for the encounter.

Some people here define "encounter" in that context as meaning something entirely different. Especially if the undead show up at different times.

[garhkal]

Nice rundown.. Even with my knowledge of 2e, i never noticed that 2e removed the whole "If the undead are under the control of a master, the cleric needs to be able to defeat the master before he can affect the underlings" part.

[morikahn]

So why the love for 3-4-5E

Hey, I thought you guys would appreciate the service. It looks like this ability has changed drastically each edition; I think, like Matthew pointed out on his blog, no one has ever been really happy with the ability as it stands, so it keeps mutating into something else. I found it very interesting how at 3rd edition it started to metamorphose into something more like a videogame ability, and was clearly being treated as such by 4th edition. By 5th edition it appears they learned the errors of their ways and tried to bring it back to its roots without the use of a matrix.

Some people here define "encounter" in that context as meaning something entirely different. Especially if the undead show up at different times.

That is very true. But in that case, that DM would be defining "encounter" differently for not just 2nd edition, but any edition he or she ran. Since Turn Undead was limited by encounter in B/X, 1e, 2e, and 4e it would still not be an appreciable variable.

Nice rundown.. Even with my knowledge of 2e, i never noticed that 2e removed the whole "If the undead are under the control of a master, the cleric needs to be able to defeat the master before he can affect the underlings" part.

From the way the rules are written, this is how its supposed to work in 1e: If a 5th level cleric encountered a wraith, 13 on the turn table, with 5 shadow minions, 4 on the turn table, the cleric would attempt to turn the shadows on the first round, and the wraith on the second. However, since the wraith is the master undead, the cleric would need to roll a 13 or higher to turn the shadows, not a 4.

[Justisaur]

0E also had "Clerics versus Undead Monsters" table, which appears about the same as Holmes, but
D = Dispelled/dissolved

[FreddyP]

Some people here define "encounter" in that context as meaning something entirely different. Especially if the undead show up at different times.

That is very true. But in that case, that DM would be defining "encounter" differently for not just 2nd edition, but any edition he or she ran. Since Turn Undead was limited by encounter in B/X, 1e, 2e, and 4e it would still not be an appreciable variable.

I agree with you. However, I get the impression that we're in the minority here. I had a thread some time ago and found myself disagreeing with most of the responses.

[Matthew-]

In 2nd edition, the cleric gets one turn attempt and can only affect 2d6 undead. Then he or she is done for the encounter. In 1st Edition, the cleric can turn multiple rounds, once per undead type, and turn 1-12 of them, each.

So, if a first edition cleric met a group of 12 skeletons, 12 zombies, and 12 ghouls, he or she would turn 1-12 of each group over the course of three rounds (assuming survival), with the small possibility of turning them all.

A 2nd edition cleric would get 1 turn attempt, and at best could only turn all the skeletons.

In B/X, the cleric could turn indefinitely each round, but would be Turning Hit Dice, which become less and less effective against the higher level undead. On average, it would take the cleric 9 rounds to turn all the undead present (60 HD / 7 avg.)

Right, I think the "drastic" part is what threw me off there, as it seems to me that it is only going to be drastic in a minority of cases.

[morikahn]

Thats true Mat, it' gonna depend on the situation. I'll put it this way: skeletons and zombies would be the most effective screens to protect higher level undead in 2nd edition.

[Spinachcat]

I wonder if people buy adventures for specific editions, or whether GMs just buy any OSR adventure for whatever edition (or house-ruled version) they are running, assuming the minutiae between various pre-3e editions is not great enough to affect their table.

You could consider writing your own adventure specific Turning rules. AKA, because of *Unique Magic!* protecting this particular graveyard in this particular adventure, all clerics of any edition will use your Turning rules while in this graveyard.

[garhkal]

I got all the OA modules i could, just cause. I got the spell jammer ones, cause i like the setting and had several games use out of each (with the exception of the skull and crossbows one, never could get a group agree to play that?)

[Matthew-]

Thats true Mat, it' gonna depend on the situation. I'll put it this way: skeletons and zombies would be the most effective screens to protect higher level undead in 2nd edition.

Yes, indeed. I see some merit in all the different approaches, though I am not sold on any particular one.

[McDeath]

Bump*. This is a good analysis (actually the search on the subject turns up a lot of threads. Didn't know people were generally unsatisfied with turning.

Do undead know fear or is it just repulsion like a force? Skeletons and mindless undead couldn't know fear i wouldn't think.

[bobjester]

Bump*. This is a good analysis (actually the search on the subject turns up a lot of threads. Didn't know people were generally unsatisfied with turning.

Do undead know fear or is it just repulsion like a force? Skeletons and mindless undead couldn't know fear i wouldn't think.

I like the side-by-side analysis of a singular game effects across the spectrum of A/D&D versions.

I don't think the animated undead feel any emotion, let alone fear, but the intelligent undead might be physically repelled due to the overriding force of Positive v. Negative planar energies in play, or something simpler like the cleric's deity having more inherent power over the undead - depending on your particular campaign flavor.

Somewhere in the morass of D&D files of my laptop is a short document covering "Dispel Magic" by edition = 0e, Holmes, BX, BECMI, AD&D, AD&D2e, 3.5, 4e/Essentials and 5e. I meant to post it here once many months ago, and I honestly don't think I did.

[McDeath]

IMHO, detailed comparisons between editions can give ideas for sandboxing. It isn't like i tournament play.

[morikahn]

Heh. I'm glad this thread wasn't completely lost to history. I spent a lot of time on it.

Originally, I was thinking about making an adventure that involved a clerics-only partying exploring a multi-cultural cemetery that could through played by various editions of D&D. Since Turn Undead would be prevalent in such a game, I wanted to get a good idea how its effect would differ and how I would need to alter the adventure depending on what edition was being used.

I was surprised by how much Turn Undead actually did differ per edition, especially between B/X, 1st, and 2nd.. which I'd always sorta assumed would be similar.

Now this was just an analysis of a particular game mechanic. How Turn Undead is explained and what the emotional capacity of undead is in a campaign would be up to the DM or the developers of official specific campaign products. I don't think a discussion on those subjects is pertinent on this thread.

[Mr. Reaper]

If you're interested in some lesser-known rules, The Rules Cyclopedia contains the information that came form BECM (mainly the CM parts) in regard to Undead Lieges and Pawns. This can affect Turning even if you're not specifically using the Liege/Pawn system, since this can automatically apply to any summoned Undead:

RC p.217-218

A liege may control a number of undead
whose total Hit Dice are less than or equal to
twice the liege's Hit Dice.
...
If an undead can call or summon others, those
responding are automatically its pawns unless
the new Hit Dice total would exceed the limits
given above, or unless the liege allows them to
retain free will.

...

When a character tries to turn pawns, the attempt
is checked as if against the liege. If the attempt
fails, the pawns are completely
unaffected, even if they would normally be turned
or destroyed by the result. If the turn succeeds,
the control link is broken, but there is no
other effect. A second attempt at turning the
same group must be made for the former pawns
to be turned with normal chances and results.

[Jocanuck]

5e has the evil oathbreaker paladin that can control undead.

Control Undead. As an action, the paladin targets one undead creature he or she can see within 30 feet of him or her. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target must obey the paladin’s commands for the next 24 hours, or until the paladin uses this Channel Divinity option again. An undead whose challenge rating is equal to or greater than the paladin’s level is immune to this effect.

[Mr. Reaper]

Oh yeah, the Avenger (Chaotic Fighter/Cleric "prestige class" from the Companion set and RC) can also control Undead:

An avenger may turn undead as if he were a
cleric of one-third his actual experience level,
but with an important difference. If the result
is "turn" or "destroy," the avenger may
choose to control them instead. If control is
chosen, it lasts for 1 turn per level of the
avenger—thus, a 17th level avenger could
control them for 17 turns. Undead thus controlled
behave as if charmed, obeying the
avenger as if they were friends.
However, if the undead are turned or destroyed
by a cleric during the duration of the
control, the control is dispelled immediately,
and cannot be renewed. If the duration of
the control ends without incident, the undead
will flee (as if turned).

[serleran]

Are we factoring in editions that have a rule for environmental conditions? I do not recall if Classic has it, but I know 2e and 1e (or I believe 1e does) have a rule that allows for where the undead are to be a consideration. Ravenloft (the setting) definitely has such zones where undead become more difficult, if not impossible, to turn.